* Karol Pietrzak (noodlez84@earthlink.net) [010903 19:21]: ->On 3 Sep 2001, Ben Rosenberg wrote: -> ->> ->> StarOffice is nowhere near as fast or feature-full as MS Office, ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yep, you did..and I responded to the featured part. With 7200 and soon to be 10K EIDE drives and 128 DIMM's for $40..I wasn't talking about speed...but features. ->Please note that I also mentioned that StarOffice is not as fast ->as MS Office (at least Office97). As a StarOffice 5.2 user, I ->sincerely hope Sun deals with this (which they said they will). -> -> ->> ->> IE is nowhere near as stable and fails to render all pages ->> ->> perfectly, fonts (even anti-aliased) look like crap compared to ->> ->> the latest WIndows / Mac desktop (my win95 installation has ->> ->> better / more fonts than my SuSE 7.2 installation) -> ->It's to Microsoft's financial advantage to ship an inferior and ->belated product for a competing platform... I don't want Microsoft products for Linux. They over charge for bloatware. Sorry :) -> ->> What your saying is bullshit. You condemn the software when the true ->> root of the problem is the so called " web developers " out there..they ->> are the issue. My wife worked for a HUGE web dev firm..and they were so ->> lazy that they really only tested on IE under Windows. -> ->Yes, I agree, the problem is a social phenomenon and not a ->software limitation. Please note that I did not state the Linux ->has shitty web browsers (before Konqueror and a usable Mozilla, ->such was the case). I was simply describing the current ->situation: many sites don't render properly no matter what web ->browser you use in Linux. The above is a 180 from browsers are crap and can't render pages correctly. Yes it is a social phenomenon..it's people crossing their hearts and in Bill the trust. It sad really. ->Now try describing this to the infamous "average Windows user". ->Even if you manage to get past the user-agent strings, you still ->need to convince them that Linux is a good web browsing platform ->(many sites don't view correctly although it's not its fault, ->many plugins don't work, etc.). Good luck... Well, to tell you the truth. Linux/X based applications will continue to improve and people will catch on as they should. I've heard the "Joe Sixpack User" arguement before. People use to bring this up on the OS/2 lists I was on..it's always something that isn't easy enough for the lowest mentally challenged person that keeps Windows on the desktop and unless we change to become just like the "blinking at 12:00" people we can't possibly "take over the world". I don't care if Linux takes over the world. I just want lazy people out of mine. If people can't take the time to learn something new then they shouldn't. They should stay in their comfort zone and stay out of mine. Simple. -> ->Windows does have a standard package format (albeit its not a ->very good one). It's a simple EXE. Game patches install from ->them; critical system patches install from these as well; any ->software on the platform (whether its freeware, shareware, ->commercial, GPL, proprietary, etc.) installs using these ->painless and carefree files. Ya got me there. I wish Linux had a really nice install routine like Solaris does. Under Solaris you can use pkgadd or for a lot of commercial software ..just click on the installer in their filemanager and a nice Java installer comes up and is truely a nice setup. ->Linux, however, currently lacks ->something of this sort. Redhat uses RPM, Slackware uses PKG ->(gzipped tar), Debian uses DEB. Thankfully SuSE decided _not_ ->have their own package format (the "Yet Another..." method of ->naming software speaks to this situation in Linux). Yes, RPM is ->the "standard" (LSB), but what good is it if the other distros ->don't all use it (e.g. Debian and all the variants such as ->Progeny, Storm, Corel, etc.)? Some software writers prefer to ->only distribute source. For example, a new cdrtools version ->became available recently. No RPM was available of that ->version, so I compiled my own, thankfully without problems ->(unlike the previous version). Being the average "Windows ->user", I would have no clue how to do that. I would probably ->then wait for the major distros to compile their own RPM's (or ->DEBs, or PKG, or whatever), if ever, and then download them. I only count RPM and Deb because they are what the 4 major distributions that a user would encounter are going to use...ie SuSE, RH, Caldera, Mandrake. Storm, Corel and the other debian variants are gone and this still fits my profile of RPM or Deb..same packaging..different label on the distribtution. Most users won't be using slackware which is why I didn't include it. It's a bit to hard for the average user..but I agree there is a 3rd pkg format. As for the software authors who only distribute via source. That is their business..not a " Linux thing "..it's so Solaris, *BSD and other Unices can have access. If the software was just distributed in RPM or deb..it would piss a lot of people off. Yes, in most cases a user should wait for their distribution to make a package or find one that is already made by someone else. In the most radical of cases..read a book or ask someone how to compile the software if they really need it. Finding out how to do something that's more then "point and click " has become a crime in society .. learning use to be praised .. now it is condemned because it's just .. to ..hard. ->The problem is eccentuated even further because the distros ->aren't compatible (using RPMs from RedHat on a SuSE system could ->have disastrous results). That's why there need to be at least ->3 (more if you want to be serious) RPM versions (just RPM, not ->mentioning DEB, etc.): Mandrake 7.2, Mandrake 8.0, SuSE 7.1, ->SuSE 7.2, RedHat 6.2, RedHat 7.x. What if a new version of a ->standard library breaks current apps (as happened with libc)? ->All hell breaks loose. SuSE (fortunately) never accepts the ->lastest and greatest and always tests software before ->distribution (unlike RedHat...). Well..the LSB should fix this. Blame RH for using a "Beta Snapshot" of GCC. That broke a lot of things. As far as directory structure..yes it needs to be fixed...but I have never had unrecoverable " disastrous results " when I installed an RH RPM into a SuSE system as long as I knew that it was 6.2 and that 7.0 broke everything with the compiler change. I'm sorry but computing requires some paying attention to..and most people don't. That's why a company that I use to work for could get $70-100 an hour to reinstall Windows for customers. That's INSANE. It's VCR syndrome...*blink*. ->> -> no standard GUI ->> ->> KDE and Gnome..they ship with EVERY distribution.."see above reason" -> ->AFAIK, a qt / KDE theme does not change the appearance of gtk ->apps. It doesn't even change apps like Netscape (which uses ->Motif). So much for "standard"... which toolkit should I ->learn? I will soon have to make that decision, God help me... The Joe SixPack arguement you started above is irrelevant to this. You are talking about programming...not using a "Standard GUI" .. this is tangent. As I said there are 2 standard GUI's for most Linux distributions..KDE and Gnome. Netscape 4.X should be and will be end of lifed. Netscape 6 uses GTK...and even then that doesn't matter because of the theme park on Netscapes site or x.themes.org. If you skin doesn't match your theme..go find one that does. BTW..I see TONS of apps in Windows that have different looks and you would think they weren't even from the same environment. Window Blinds and many other programs change the look and feel of the GUI and people PAY for them. I've even seen KDE2 and Gnome themes. And direct rip offs of E. Again..this doesn't matter to Joe 6pack. ->Why not use Loki's SDL and OpenAL? What if your card doesn't ->support OpenGL very well? What if your sound card doesn't have ->good Alsa support? If you use Microsoft, the questions are ->superfluous: DirectX or no DirectX. I do, however, agree with ->you in that OpenGL is definitely the way to go in terms of ->graphics API's. Just one more question: QT or GTK? Well, then I would ask you to tell me why my Diamond Viper 550 under 98 on my game box causes Win2K to randomly reboot while watching the news. Guess it's just not supported under DirectX very well. ->Oh, please: not once did I "praise" Microsoft software. All I ->did was illustrate the situation, in whatever form (pro / anti ->Windows) it presented itself. Well, when I hear "Windows 95 does this 10X better then Linux " it ain't a hoorah for Linux..sorry if I miss too your slamming various things and saying the worked so well under Windows as being pro-windows. Now that I know your not I won't dispute it again ;) ->I can tell from your sig (" cat CE|ME|NT|XP > /dev/null ") that ->you're not the biggest Microsoft fan. My initial response was ->to the topic stated in the Subject line (Linux for home ->desktop). As such, it is not up to par with the Windows ->counterparts. My comments were simply to explain why: it has ->nothing to do with quality of software. Yep..I'm not a big fan of Microsoft..but not for the reasons you would think. I personally never had Windows truely fuck up on me...because I read a lot of books on it...and knew how to configure and baby it so that it sung like a bird. I am not fond of them because they make substandard software ware and charge everyone outragous amounts for it. The engulf everything thing they come near..they are a lot like how Robin Williams described men to be .." if they can't fuck it..they'll kill it." If MS can't own it or twist it to their own ends..they try their best to destroy it. I also won't pirate software ..I think people should be paid for their work. With the acception of the 7.0 series..I bought all the boxed editions of SuSE. I have 8 of Loki's software library .etc..etc. Hell I bought StarOffice when it was still commercialware. I don't mind paying for software just not crapware and I won't contribute to the bottomline of a company which is no better then the Mafia. ->The messages' content has started to fade away from the Subject ->line. If they continue that way, I will not respond out of ->respect for the suse-linux-e@suse.com subscribers who do not ->want YA-FW (Yet Another Flame War). This is all I have left to say on the subject. I won't respond to it further. The reason I did in the first place was because I was in a bad mood and I just hate the fact that Windows people tell us WE must change. I went through enough of that crap back in the day when I was using OS/2. People trolled our lists..not saying bad things all the time...sometimes good things with a hint of " it's good..but you still shouldn't trust it..it's just not as good. " If I had a dime for everyone troll I kicked off #os/2 on IRC...I WOULD BE Bill Gates. :) It's just that sometimes this whole comparing Apples to Oranges ..Windows to Linux thing just gets on my last nerve at the bottom of my spine and I snap off something that may have been to harsh...sorry. I promise to be..umm..nicer. ;) -- Ben Rosenberg mailto:ben@whack.org cat CE|ME|NT|XP > /dev/null