Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (2407 mails)

[wilson@xxxxxxxxxxx (Jonathan Wilson)]

IMHO, to set an arbitrary date (attached to an arbitrary version number 
[increase]) and then rush out a *bad* [unstable or with broken packages or 
untested) product in order to meet these deadlines (no matter what the 
reason for setting these deadlines was)  is not right, and certainly isn't 
a good way to gain the support and favor of customers.

I was just reading about the fact that OpenBSD is what it is [stable] 
because they spend long hours pouring over the code, testing it, not JUST 
for security but for everything - because a truly healthy system will be 
much more likely to be secure by default. The OpenBSD people would never 
"get it out the door" just to meet a deadline.

Um, *cough*, neither do the Linux kernel developers - in spite of the fact 
that people are literally screaming for 2.4. If those guys don't rush bad 
products out the door (and you'll notice that no one moves to another OS / 
Distro due to their "slowness"), then why should SuSE?

I do not belive there is a _good_ answer to that - because they Should Not.

To SuSE: Please learn a lesson or two from the OpenBSD people. It may look 
like you'll lose money if you don't get your product out the door, but in 
fact that is not true - if you spend extra time perfecting it, you will 
only gain more customers - at least in the long run -, hence more cash too :-)

P.S.: This is not a flame against SuSE - I still use/love/support SuSE and 
will shortly purchase 7.0.
I just expect them to do a little better, and I think it's due to their 
meet-the-deadline philosophy.

please send flames to /dev/null .

At 02:37 PM 8/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>Yup, suse's awesome - no problems whatsoever!  gimme a
>break.  Yes, I have everything you say on your list
>working as well.  Yast is great, the suse boot concept
>is excellent also, not to mention Sax2 ROCKS!.  I know
>all about reading source documents, and no, I don't
>rely on Suse books and this list to get things
>working, and my complaint is not that I can't get
>things working (since my first post, those issues are
>resolved).
>
>I don't rely too much on the vendor, I expect too much
>from the vendor.  I would love to spend more time
>working on what I want to work on, rather than
>cleaning up my 6.4.  Again, my original point was,
>that suse is worse now than before, and we are not
>getting what we pay for, and when we download a SuSE
>package, it should work.  Believe it or not, there are
>people in the world that do not kow how to untar a
>file.  There are also people in the world that cannot
>debug their installation.  If Linux is ever going to
>make a big go for the desktop, there has to be better
>quality control, and higher reliability software!
>
>I don't know, maybe if I could just have the SuSE base
>package and networking as an option, and download the
>rest, I would be better off - wait, i can do that -
>just pay for six cd's and use only one!  Never mind, i
>have the solution!
>
>BTW: my kernel issue was that the source package from
>kernelhq wouldn't work, not the binary version.
>opposite of what you said, the binary works.
>
>Ron
>
>
>
>
>--- Purple Shirt <purpleshirt@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I got no problem with SuSE. Everything they deliver
> > works fine. I use
> > sendmail, nfs, nis, firewall, masq, samba, lprng,
> > apache, mysql, x,
> > alsa(hand configured), yast. I tend to hand
> > configure things
> > because......well once you learn Linux you feel good
> > doing it just because
> > you can =) I am curious though how YaST2 will do the
> > nfs/nis(?) stuff.
> >
> > I have to admit I never read the SuSE handbook(s). I
> > barely ever used the
> > documentation which can be installed on CD. I just
> > don't find it very easy
> > to maneuver in.
> >
> > I use linuxdoc.org and google search engine and
> > there is all you ever want.
> > Most problems can be put into one of the program
> > categories listed above and
> > hence you go to that how-to. 90% of problems can be
> > fixed through this.
> > Otherwise you go to alsa mailing list for alsa.
> >
> > SuSE comes nicely packaged and contains more stuff I
> > ever could make use
> > off. Due to its large content base it must be a hell
> > of a lot of work to
> > keep all things up to date and working.
> >
> > I am sure there is always ways to improve things but
> > it takes time. SuSe
> > created the contact points for problems so if you
> > don't use them then don't
> > expect an acknowledgement.
> >
> > I also would NEVER expect a precompiled kernel
> > upgrade (2.2.14->2.2.16) to
> > keep alsa sound functional. That is lunatic. Purely
> > to the fact that this
> > kernel is different from the one before how can all
> > binaries which refer to
> > 2.2.14 still work with 2.2.16? Alsa is picky about
> > the kernel version so why
> > blame this on SuSE?
> >
> > Even if I run into problems with SuSE its more of a
> > challenge to find out
> > why there is a problem. Doesn't that make you
> > curious? So if a packag
> > doesn't work for me I pull down the source compile
> > install and have it
> > working and feel glad we ARE using open source. If
> > we weren't we would be
> > doomed in that case. Just because a thing doesn't
> > work for you doesn't stop
> > you to go and compile it yourself.
> >
> > I don't expect SuSe to create their own
> > documentation to the above mentioned
> > programs. I mean why would SuSe go through the
> > lengths of creating MYSQL
> > docu if there is in-depth docu on the mysql site?
> > Why would SuSE waste their
> > time creating big printing documentation if the best
> > printing doc is at
> > www.astart.com???
> >
> > I think you depend too much on one vendor(SuSE) and
> > one mailing list instead
> > of going out there and using all the resources
> > available to you.
> >
> > Hut ab zu SuSE,
> >
> > mk
> >
> > >From: Ron Heron <heroron@xxxxxxxxx>
> > >To: Monte Milanuk <milanuk@xxxxxxxxx>, Michael
> > Hasenstein <mha@xxxxxxxx>
> > >CC: suse-linux-e@xxxxxxxx
> > >Subject: Re: [SLE] Disgruntled Customer
> > >Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:32:56 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > >SuSE, and anyone else who cares about this
> > thread....
> > >
> > >I think we have every right to be critical of SuSE.
> > >We, after all, pay them for a product.  When the
> > >product comes out half-baked (or under documented)
> > we
> > >tend to get sour.  While we as customers sometimes
> > >make brain-dead mistakes, SuSE, as a vendor does,
> > too.
> > >  Just looking at Michaels replies - how the hell
> > were
> > >we supposed to know what suse or RH do with their
> > >kernels, unless they tell us?  Does he REALLY want
> > to
> > >stand behind me while I work on my system - for
> > what?
> > >Do I need SuSE to tell me that the problems are MY
> > >problems?  - No duh, they're my problems.
> > >
> > >
> > >Also, SuSE wants a bug report for everything.  Some
> > of
> > >this stuff is very basic, and a low level of QC or
> > >Documentation could easily have kept people from
> > major
> > >frustration.
> > >
> > >Right now, the feeling I get is
> > >
> > >"This is SuSE, you like it, you told me so, so shut
> > >up.  If you got a problem, fill out a bug report,
> > and
> > >we'll tell you that we already knew about it.  We
> > save
> > >ton's of money letting the customer QC our
> > >distributions, so we can hire egotistical people to
> > >respond to your concerns and really make you feel
> > like
> > >an idiot."
> > >
> > >Truthfully, I am not really bothered by the whole
> > >ordeal.  I think it's rather funny seeing these
> > kind
> > >of responses from vendors, especially in this day
> > and
> > >age.  It's kinda like the old days, when you could
> > >treat the customers poorly, because there was no
> > >alternative.  I said WAS.
> > >
> > >Oh, and SuSE, before you get started on this - I
> > know
> > >you need details, and general statements don't help
> > >much, blah blah.  But, perhaps the marketing and
> > >management folks should attend to this issue.  It
> > is
> > >clearly not an engineering problem.  It is a QC,
> > >Documentation, Customer Relation, and Packaging
> > >problem.  That was the reason for the generality in
> > >the original post. If I actually wanted help fixing
> > >the problems (I didn't ask for help, did I?) then I
> > >would have posted in that matter.
> > >
> > >But, on a positive note, I did learn alot about the
> > >kernel packaging!
> > >
> > >Ron
> > >
> > >--- Monte Milanuk <milanuk@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- Michael Hasenstein <mha@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > > Ron Heron wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello,  I have been using SuSE since 6.0.  I
> > > > upgraded
> > > > > > to 6.2, and then 6.4.  It seems to me,
> > though,
> > > > that
> > > > > > getting the system usable, and maintaining
> > > > current
> > > > > > software is becoming more and more difficult
> > > > with
> > > > > > SuSE.  Maybe it is just me, but I have
> > noticed
> > > > >
> > > > > I cannot agree.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > numerous postings where people have MAJOR
> > > > problems
> > > > > > using SuSE upgrades and patches, or basic
> > Linux
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a ridiculous observation. Who else
> > would
> > > > post
> > > > > anything here?!
> > > > > This mailing list is for problems and their
> > > > solutions.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > upgrades on a SuSE-installed system.  Here
> > are
> > > > my
> > > > > > examples:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1)  Upgraded to Kernel 2.2.16, and the
> > system
> > > > was
> > > > > > unusable.  Why can't I upgrade to a new
> > kernel
> > > > >
> > > > > a) That is hardly a SuSE problem if you choose
> > to
> >
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
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