Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (3394 mails)

[dk983@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (bsh)]

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At 03:00 AM 05/03/00 -1000, you wrote:
Hi, Avi,

Avi Schwartz wrote:
 >
 > I don't understand what the noise is all about.  Roland Dyroff is right
 > about every point he brought up.  I love Linux and I use it as my main
 > platform both at home and at work but I have to agree that Linux is not
 > quite ready for the desktop.  It is coming close, but it is not there
 > yet.

That depends on whose desktop you are referring to.  Most corporations
have an IT department to configure software and hardware for the users.
If a company deploys Linux, they should hire Linux administrators.
Likewise, if they deploy NT on the desktop, they usually hire MCP's
or MCSE's.

What Linux is not ready for is the so-called "power user" who downloads
some gee-whiz GUITweeker from download.com, changes to look of his
screen and thinks he's a Guru.  This individual will try to install
Linux and destroy everything (because he knows all about computers
and therefore does not need to read anything), and blames Linux for
corrupting his data when the readme clearly said to run scandisk
and defrag first.

My wife doesn't give two hoots about the OS.  She can use Linux like
a pro because the GUI is similar to Windows and StarOffice works just
like MS Office.  It prints when she clicks on the printer icon.
(The virtual desktops still confuses her, though.)

 > For example, to be ready for the desktop it must have, among other
 > things, the ability to handle MS Office documents (Word, Excel, etc.)
 > with 100% accuracy.  Whether we like it or not, that is what 95% of

With this criteria, Microsoft Word is not ready for the desktop.  Have
you ever taken a Word 6 file and loaded it into Word 97?  Only if it
is a simple one-page memo do I get 100% accuracy.  I have fewer problems
with a StarOffice generated document saved as Word - here I only have
to replace the smiley-face bullets with real bullets and it's good to go.

 > businesses are using today, and that it what people use at home, since
 > they need to ability to exchange documents between work and home.  I am
 > yet to find a program that can handle Office documents with 100%
 > accuracy, or even 75% accuracy.  I have tried them all, WP, StarOffice,
 > Applix, Abi Word.

I write Linux articles for two technical newspapers in Hawaii using
StarOffice on Linux.  I save them in Word 6 format, and my editors have
NEVER once mentioned any problems with the format or the text.  I've
collaborated with others who used Word 97, and I've been fully functional
with StarOffice.  Accuracy was not a problem, and this was 18 months
ago.

 > Linux installation:  I believe that today, with some distributions, the
 > installation of Linux is almost as easy as a Windows installation.  The
 > difference is, that when you buy a computer today, %99.99 of them come
 > pre installed with Windows, not Linux.  The users don't have to install
 > anything, which makes Linux by definition harder to install.

Installing Linux is much easier than Windows.  I've installed each
several dozen times.  Installing Linux is about as difficult as
installing NT.

But you compare apples to oranges.  Sit a user in front of a Linux
box and a Windows box and ask them which is harder to install?  Will
they know?  No.  Give a person a computer with a blank hard drive
and a CD-ROM, the Windows 95 disks and a Linux CD, and I'll put
money on Linux.  Why?  Because Windows 95 CD is not bootable, and
Microsoft forgot to put the CD-ROM drivers on the floppy.  Most
Linux CD's are bootable.

 > Instead of crying for Mr. Dyroff's head, we should all thank him for
 > being sincere.  We are getting enough lies from Microsoft, we don't need
 > to hear them from the makers of our favorite distribution.  By opening
 > our eyes to the weaknesses in Linux, the truth allows us to improve the
 > operating system.

There is a way of being sincere without demoralizing your loyal clientelle
and your employees, and this was not it.  The leader of any group should
show full support for the group and what the group is doing.  How many
wars were won when the Generals said "We shouldn't be here."  Not too
many, because like snow, bad morale avalanches as it falls, and these
type of comments can seriously demoralize a company, which adversely
affects product value and performance.

Enough.

George

--------------------------------------------------------

I don't know how anyone can say that Linux is at this moment ready for the
desktop.  Those that do have been working in Linux too long and have lost
touch with the real world.  I Manage a Computer Book Store which is a
strong supporter of Linux, and I run SuSE on a dual boot machine.  But I
deal with regular computer users very day and their level of computer
competence is just not up to the learning curve of Linux.  When you see
people come in day after day asking of Dummies books on this topic or that,
not because they like the "Dummies" book style, but their own perceived
level of competence is such that they feel only a book which tells them
they are Dummies will do.

I consider myself fairly tech friendly guy, but in the 6 months I've been
using SuSE (part-time) I have been unable to get my printer (Epson Stylus 
Photo 750) working.  Now
this problem of working with a peripheral such as the printer is endemic of
much of Linux.  Until these sorts of problems are fixed Linux will not be
ready for those users of "Dummies".

Lastly, I do believe that Linux will be a Desktop alternative and that time 
is not that far away.

bruce

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Hi, Hi, 

<font size=3>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
At 03:00 AM 05/03/00 -1000, you wrote:
Hi, Avi,
Avi Schwartz wrote:
> 
> I don't understand what the noise is all about.  Roland Dyroff
is right
> about every point he brought up.  I love Linux and I use it as
my main
> platform both at home and at work but I have to agree that Linux is
not
> quite ready for the desktop.  It is coming close, but it is not
there
> yet.  
That depends on whose desktop you are referring to.  Most
corporations
have an IT department to configure software and hardware for the
users.
If a company deploys Linux, they should hire Linux administrators.
Likewise, if they deploy NT on the desktop, they usually hire MCP's
or MCSE's.
What Linux is not ready for is the so-called "power user" who
downloads
some gee-whiz GUITweeker from download.com, changes to look of his 
screen and thinks he's a Guru.  This individual will try to
install
Linux and destroy everything (because he knows all about computers
and therefore does not need to read anything), and blames Linux for
corrupting his data when the readme clearly said to run scandisk
and defrag first.
My wife doesn't give two hoots about the OS.  She can use Linux
like
a pro because the GUI is similar to Windows and StarOffice works
just
like MS Office.  It prints when she clicks on the printer 
icon.
(The virtual desktops still confuses her, though.)
> For example, to be ready for the desktop it must have, among
other
> things, the ability to handle MS Office documents (Word, Excel,
etc.)
> with 100% accuracy.  Whether we like it or not, that is what
95% of
With this criteria, Microsoft Word is not ready for the desktop. 
Have
you ever taken a Word 6 file and loaded it into Word 97?  Only if
it
is a simple one-page memo do I get 100% accuracy.  I have fewer
problems
with a StarOffice generated document saved as Word - here I only
have
to replace the smiley-face bullets with real bullets and it's good to
go.
> businesses are using today, and that it what people use at home,
since
> they need to ability to exchange documents between work and
home.  I am
> yet to find a program that can handle Office documents with
100%
> accuracy, or even 75% accuracy.  I have tried them all, WP,
StarOffice,
> Applix, Abi Word.
I write Linux articles for two technical newspapers in Hawaii using 
StarOffice on Linux.  I save them in Word 6 format, and my editors
have 
NEVER once mentioned any problems with the format or the text.  I've
collaborated with others who used Word 97, and I've been fully
functional
with StarOffice.  Accuracy was not a problem, and this was 18
months
ago.
> Linux installation:  I believe that today, with some
distributions, the
> installation of Linux is almost as easy as a Windows
installation.  The
> difference is, that when you buy a computer today, %99.99 of them
come
> pre installed with Windows, not Linux.  The users don't have to
install
> anything, which makes Linux by definition harder to install.
Installing Linux is much easier than Windows.  I've installed each
several dozen times.  Installing Linux is about as difficult 
as
installing NT.
But you compare apples to oranges.  Sit a user in front of a
Linux
box and a Windows box and ask them which is harder to install? 
Will
they know?  No.  Give a person a computer with a blank hard
drive
and a CD-ROM, the Windows 95 disks and a Linux CD, and I'll put
money on Linux.  Why?  Because Windows 95 CD is not bootable,
and
Microsoft forgot to put the CD-ROM drivers on the floppy.  
Most
Linux CD's are bootable.
> Instead of crying for Mr. Dyroff's head, we should all thank him
for
> being sincere.  We are getting enough lies from Microsoft, we
don't need
> to hear them from the makers of our favorite distribution.  By
opening
> our eyes to the weaknesses in Linux, the truth allows us to improve
the
> operating system.
There is a way of being sincere without demoralizing your loyal
clientelle
and your employees, and this was not it.  The leader of any group
should
show full support for the group and what the group is doing.  How
many
wars were won when the Generals said "We shouldn't be
here."  Not too
many, because like snow, bad morale avalanches as it falls, and
these
type of comments can seriously demoralize a company, which 
adversely
affects product value and performance.
Enough.
George
--------------------------------------------------------
I don't know how anyone can say that Linux is at this moment ready for
the
desktop.  Those that do have been working in Linux too long and have
lost
touch with the real world.  I Manage a Computer Book Store which is
a
strong supporter of Linux, and I run SuSE on a dual boot machine. 
But I
deal with regular computer users very day and their level of
computer
competence is just not up to the learning curve of Linux.  When you
see
people come in day after day asking of Dummies books on this topic or
that,
not because they like the "Dummies" book style, but their own
perceived
level of competence is such that they feel only a book which tells
them
they are Dummies will do.  
I consider myself fairly tech friendly guy, but in the 6 months I've
been
using SuSE (part-time) I have been unable to get my printer (Epson Stylus
Photo 750) working.  Now
this problem of working with a peripheral such as the printer is endemic
of
much of Linux.  Until these sorts of problems are fixed Linux will
not be
ready for those users of "Dummies".
Lastly, I do believe that Linux will be a Desktop alternative and that
time is not that far away. 
bruce
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Hi, Hi, </font>