On Thursday 16 June 2011 18:33:56 Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
On 06/15/2011 03:00 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Can someone tell me what the point of the openSUSE community is then?
As a community we come together to work on the distribution, tools, etc. Discussing is not work.
It is a precursor - if we don't discuss and agree on an approach, we have anarchy.
But how can you claim there is no discussion? Frederic brought it up to start one, and that is exactly what is happening. The whole whining about "but we don't discuss things" is bull****
As pointed out by Coolo, the maintainers of a package have ultimate say what gets done. How does it help to have an init system in 12.1 that no one is willing to maintain?
It doesn't help, but it's not a problem either. However, a halfway finished init-system does not help either, but it would be a problem.
You're argumenting for the sake of argumentation. Nobody has proposed to implement a half-working solution. Maybe some less-used features won't be ready for the next openSUSE release but other things will be in there which weren't there before. That's how progress works and Frederic brought all this up to discuss what features we can (temporarily) do without and what needs to be prioritized.
This should be treated no differently then any other package.
You don't think a complete change of the init system is just a little more critical than upgrades of kedit or jfsutils?
Following your arguments we should have a gazillion message discussion about what kernel version we should have in 12.1, we should have also had a lengthy discussion about updating glibc, and what about GNOME, maybe we should discuss the use of GNOME 3 until the end of time.
Robert, you haven't been paying attention - we are talking about deliberation, i.e. informing people about pros and cons and whys and hows, encouraging them to voice their concerns and/or opinions. Some of that is slowly beginning now, but the approach has had to be forced and has been completely backward, imho.
Again, you're argumenting against something which isn't there. Frederic brought this up so don't claim there is no discussion. And yes, Robert is right, we can't discuss every little thing. Big things ARE discussed so you have no point here, just pointless talking to the clouds. Which is wasting time of all of us. You try to win an argument which doesn't exist. Can you PLEASE just stop it?
I personally was very happy to see a plan put forth for the switch over, rather than being surprised one day that systemd "magically" showed up. The reward for those putting in the effort of doing the work and trying to keep people informed? Messages from naysayers that do not participate in the actual work.
Surely it is a reward that people care enough to speak up. An indifferent community would kill the project.
If you want to influence where things are going, use your fingers to write code, spec files etc. rather than a stream of messages to the ML.
I do too, but I happen to think both are important for the project. There are no doubt lots of openSUSE community members who do not "do the work" - I for one regard their thoughts and opinions to be as important as those of any other member.
Well, then, you agree. Robert nor anyone claimed opinions of the wider community and even users are irrelevant. However, the maintainer makes the final decision (or, if he/she doesn't feel comfortable doing that, we have a excalation procedure). Your concerns have been noted, we're already doing what you're argumenting for. Feel free to reply to this mail (I'm sure you want to) but please stop posting in this or related threads and bikeshedding in general, it is harmful.