Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-project (235 mails)

[Jos Poortvliet <jospoortvliet@xxxxxxxxx>]

(mail is late, somehow my mail client fscked it up)

On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Administrator
<admin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > At the same time they can do damage (eg people who don't know them don't
> > know how to weight their input or by being an ass towards good
> > contributors). So, while as long as they obey the reasonable rules of
> > behaviour we have they can surely hang around, there is no reason at all
> > why we can't point out that it's all talk and no work. Talk is cheap,
> > ideas are easy - work is what counts; that's the Free Software culture, it
> > has gotten us this far; and we should make that clear to everyone.
>
> This would argue for having some "counter" against people's profiles for the
> quantity of their results: code contributed; packages or builds managed;
> articles published; etc.  We not need censorship, but a quick indicator of
> someone's "value" to the community would help.

Hmmm, that is surely one way of doing it - but also a way I personally
dislike and I know most do so too. Other projects mostly don't need it
- eg KDE and GNOME. Most people active in openSUSE and other
communities work in teams. Within those teams it is often quite clear
what the 'pecking order' is - you follow each other's commits and know
how experienced someone is.

> > Anyone saying "ah bah, I don't like this attitude of openSUSE" should have
> > a look at the biggest (and arguably most successful) FOSS community - the
> > Linux Kernel. The ultimate "show me the code or fuck off" attitude you'll
> > ever see. Not that I advocate mimicking it, it ain't a very friendly place
> > - but it DOES get work done.
>
> The kernel is distinctly different to OS: (correct & useful) code is the
> delivered value for the kernel and a distribution is a lot more complex.  Is
> it measured by users introduced?  Documentation and support delivered?
> "Polish" to add useability?

You don't have to measure the whole but the contributions. And
documentation, support, code and packages are all contributions -
opinions and ideas often are not. Note I say often - things aren't
black and white here, I sometimes greatly appreciate ideas from
experienced people.

> > openSUSE is, like all Free Software communities, a meritocracy. You EARN
> > the right to speak up (influence) by proving yourself valuable. If you
> > don't contribute, who the f*** are you that we should listen? We're not a
> > company - where managers get appointed to a position because they had the
> > right papers and contacts and get paid well - here, those who actually
> > KNOW what they are talking about are in charge. When we need input from
> > others (like users) we ask for it (eg see the openSUSE users survey).
>
> I don't see anyone in charge, and if it's a meritocracy, I don't see any
> method by which people's value is assessed, assigned or displayed.  It looks
> more like a Sociocracy to me.

Oh, it's a murky process, I know. Take Aaron Seigo from KDE or Dave
Neary, GNOME. Do they have an official position? No, but by their work
and commitment over the years they have proven themselves and they are
universally recognized for that.

As I wrote earlier, most work is done in smallish teams. For example
those working on li-f-e know each other and have a pretty good idea
who their most influential team members are. No, they don't have an
'score' or a title, but is that needed? I don't think so.

> > -project is a development list. So those who speak here are contributors -
> > or rather, should be. If you answer questions on the forums, write
> > articles for news.o.o, are an artist for openSUSE, packager, developer -
> > it doesn't matter WHAT you do, you're part of those who make decisions.
> > Nothing, however, is not enough. And opinions we have plenty, so no,
> > giving those is not a contribution, sorry.
>
> You're writing off the contribution that people with experience but little
> time (like me) have.  I contribute to the lists because I've used SuSE since
> 6.2 and have a lot of experience designing, developing, implementing,
> managing and using (computer) systems.  I contribute my "opinions" because
> I've seen too many occasions when lessons learned years ago are ignored and
> the same mistakes repeated.

Well, then, let me make this a bit more grey. You are surely right in
that experience and input can be valuable. What I am talking about in
terms of useless contributions are people coming to a list saying
"hey, I'm a XXX professional. I had a look at what you do and can tell
you it's all wrong. You must do this and this!". Well, I can tell you
- that's something nobody is waiting for. It's condecending and
annoying. Black.

If such a person however comes and sais, "hey, I think it'd be great
if this and this could be done, I started some work on that, anyone
interested in helping" then he/she might get something done, make a
difference. White.

Now the grey part: you. And I'm just taking your word for what you
said, as I don't know you. So someone proposes to do something - then
you can say, because you've been around for a long time: "hey, we
tried that but it didn't work because of X. You might want to try Y."
Now that IS an useful contribution, I don't deny that. However part of
the problem is that people often think their experience is much more
useful than it actually is... If I got a nickel for every super-duper
obvious comment from someone who has no clue but thinks he/she's the
smartest person on the list I'd be rich. (not talking about this list,
btw, you all know I've been here for 6 weeks only - but I've been
around in FOSS a little longer and we had these peeps come in to the
different KDE lists I was on regularly)

> > I don't want to be harsh but in my opinion this thread is going in the
> > wrong direction and I want to make clear where I stand when it comes to
> > those talking on this list. While being friendly is good, we should also
> > be clear. I KNOW there are people here who contribute far more than some
> > of the noisy people here, yet are too humble to speak up. I want to hear
> > THEIR voices instead of some "armchair project leaders", as Will calls
> > 'em.
>
> You should be clear about what "contribution", "merit", "community", "value"
> mean before excluding (or promoting) people's voices.

You are right, these things should be explained a bit more - although
a dictionairy and wikipedia can already get pretty far. Still don't
you think it's obvious enough for most part? Anyone who's been
involved in a community knows these terms and what they mean in
general...

> We've recently watched a painful strategy process which seemed to be
> creating fog not light.  Perhaps a good start would be clarity about what
> these words mean.  Perhaps OS's "product" (offered value to the world) is
> the community and infrastructure supporting that, and not the distribution?

Maybe, maybe. But I think that would be a discussion you surely can't
do over a mailinglist - it would need a face to face meeting as it's
just a matter too complicated for a limited-bandwith communication
channel like mail (or IRC or even phone). If you or anyone wants to
discuss this (I guess some marketing peeps might have strong feelings
too), the openSUSE conf might be the perfect place.

> David
>
> > Jos
> >
> > > Will
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