Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-project (930 mails)
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[opensuse-project] Re: Why I wont use the forums
- From: Jim Henderson <hendersj@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 03:10:48 +0000 (UTC)
- Message-id: <i03r3o$5t6$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Hi, Stephan -
Thank you for starting this thread. I think this provides a good
starting point for some very productive discussions.
I've a few comments along the way, please take them all in the spirit of
moving the discussion forward. Again, I *really* appreciate you opening
the dialog this way.
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 02:11:47 +0200, Stephan Kleine wrote:
Sure, let's discuss the options. If we can come up with a better
structure than what we currently have, I believe that would be seen
universally as a good thing. We may not agree on the final breakdown,
but if we can make it easier for potential repliers to find topics of
interest and make it easier for users to self-classify their issues by
picking the right forum, that should make everyone's job easier.
I've seen this one suggested a few times (even in the forums). The
concern in the past (as I understand it) has been that while we certainly
agree security topics are important, that we ensure that the users know
that it's not the place to talk about specific exploits and how to apply
them. I think if we can make it clear that's not what the space is for,
but more about system hardening, that's something I personally also would
like to see.
It might make sense to consider subdivision of that - maybe server
services as one and virtualization as another, though I do see how the
two might overlap.
That's fair; I hadn't talked to any developers who use bugzilla who don't
like it before, and I think many end-users look at bugzilla and think of
it as a tool written by developers for developers - for many it probably
never crosses their mind that the interface is perhaps cumbersome for the
developer as well.
Personally, I can't agree with this 100%, but I certainly can agree that
it's not the optimal or best solution. That was largely me brainstorming
ways to make the process better for everyone - and I'm certainly open to
alternatives.
Perhaps what we could do as an alternative is encourage users to file
their own bugs, but have a formal dispute resolution process in the event
the reporter and the developer come to an impasse or otherwise aren't
able to reconcile the way forward. Someone could mediate the dispute so
- if at all possible - a mutually acceptable solution could be found.
Is that something you'd see as a good alternative?
That sounds very reasonable to me. :-)
No problem - length doesn't bother me personally, and again, thank you
for taking the time to initiate this discussion; you've clearly given
this a lot of thought and want to see us all working "on the same side" -
which of course, we are all on the same side; we all want to make
openSUSE the *best* it can be. :-)
Jim
--
Jim Henderson
Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxx
For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Thank you for starting this thread. I think this provides a good
starting point for some very productive discussions.
I've a few comments along the way, please take them all in the spirit of
moving the discussion forward. Again, I *really* appreciate you opening
the dialog this way.
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 02:11:47 +0200, Stephan Kleine wrote:
OTOH you, the forum admins, have been asked quite some times to
introduce some subtopics targeting more specific needs. So could you
please reconsider your stance and admit that it will be easier to find
"interesting" topics one might be inclined to get involved in if one
doesn't have to wade through loads of other stuff?
Your, the forum admins`, answer was mostly that said subtopics are
already covered by their parent ones (e.g. applications for servers and
security). OTOH you happily run some "64-bit" subforum which makes no
sense IMHO since this nowadays boils down to having to install the
necessary 32-bit compat libs for some binary blobs (e.g. skype).
Sure, let's discuss the options. If we can come up with a better
structure than what we currently have, I believe that would be seen
universally as a good thing. We may not agree on the final breakdown,
but if we can make it easier for potential repliers to find topics of
interest and make it easier for users to self-classify their issues by
picking the right forum, that should make everyone's job easier.
From my personal POV I would be delighted to see:
1. a "security" one for stuff like apparmor, selinux, ssl with
certificates, general server hardening and so on
I've seen this one suggested a few times (even in the forums). The
concern in the past (as I understand it) has been that while we certainly
agree security topics are important, that we ensure that the users know
that it's not the place to talk about specific exploits and how to apply
them. I think if we can make it clear that's not what the space is for,
but more about system hardening, that's something I personally also would
like to see.
2. a "server" one for stuff like apache, php, samba, XEN, KVM, general
virtualization and so on.
It might make sense to consider subdivision of that - maybe server
services as one and virtualization as another, though I do see how the
two might overlap.
Last but not least I'm seriously wondering on those "reporting in
bugzilla for forum users" discussion. So could you, the forum admins and
users, please make it plain clear to your fellow users that:
1. To report something broken there is only ONE place and that is
http://bugzilla.novell.com/
2. If you (the random user) don't like the interface then welcome to the
club but until someone writes a new one this wont change.
That's fair; I hadn't talked to any developers who use bugzilla who don't
like it before, and I think many end-users look at bugzilla and think of
it as a tool written by developers for developers - for many it probably
never crosses their mind that the interface is perhaps cumbersome for the
developer as well.
3. Reporting a
bug as a proxy is plain useless since you (the proxy reporter) will
never be able to answer any follow up questions.
Personally, I can't agree with this 100%, but I certainly can agree that
it's not the optimal or best solution. That was largely me brainstorming
ways to make the process better for everyone - and I'm certainly open to
alternatives.
Perhaps what we could do as an alternative is encourage users to file
their own bugs, but have a formal dispute resolution process in the event
the reporter and the developer come to an impasse or otherwise aren't
able to reconcile the way forward. Someone could mediate the dispute so
- if at all possible - a mutually acceptable solution could be found.
Is that something you'd see as a good alternative?
4. You need NO knowledge to report a bug but are simply supposed to
explain as best as you can what you did to produce that bug. Then the
devs will simply ask what you did, if it isn't clear, and tell you what
information they need to fix it. If you don't know how to provide that
info then simply ASK. Every single dev I know is perfectly happy to tell
you how to provide the requested information so really all that is
required from you is to create a bugreport, do the best you can and then
simply be receptive.
That sounds very reasonable to me. :-)
Ok, that got quite lengthy, sorry for that and thanks for sticking with
me. Please keep it productive.
No problem - length doesn't bother me personally, and again, thank you
for taking the time to initiate this discussion; you've clearly given
this a lot of thought and want to see us all working "on the same side" -
which of course, we are all on the same side; we all want to make
openSUSE the *best* it can be. :-)
Jim
--
Jim Henderson
Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxx
For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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