Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-project (930 mails)
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[opensuse-project] Re: Strategy discussion @ forums (was: openSUSE Strategy Discussion: another proposal)
- From: Jim Henderson <hendersj@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 03:15:45 +0000 (UTC)
- Message-id: <hvp9t0$afb$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 04:45:57 +0200, Stephan Kleine wrote:
I'm talking about the members in the forum - not the openSUSE project
members.
This is why we need to have a common set of terms as a baseline for
discussion.
This is the core of the problem. You say the forum membership isn't
second class, but then you describe the posts on the forums
(collectively) as "bitching" and say that they need to "use
communications that are used by the rest of the world". By definition,
you've just relegated those users to "second class" status.
The openSUSE forums *are* an official channel. They're hosted by the
openSUSE project, at forums.opensuse.org.
I don't find this particularly helpful, Stephan. People need to be able
to ask for help - and they do in the forums. it's not about "mindless
bubbling" but about people who do not have the knowledge or skills to
file a bug report with the information a developer needs.
Sitting back and telling the users "you're doing it wrong" doesn't
encourage users to learn how to contribute. If you want to build a
stronger community of *contributors*, you have to start with a community
of *users* (since by definition, the contributors come out of the pool of
users). Alienating the user base is not a good way to grow a community
of contributors. Telling them they're stupid (which you have in effect
done) also doesn't. Think about it - how would YOU react to being told
that you're stupid for using a resource that has been provided by the
project? I imagine you'd be pretty angry.
Do you have some past here that is not apparent to me? I *am* one of the
admins over there, but I'm relatively new as well.
When's the last time you looked at the structure?
Turn that statement on its head; the audience you are a part of also has
to accept that not everyone's world spins around the mailing lists.
40,000+ users in the forum. How many on the MLs?
I'm not saying this is a question of "MLs vs. forums" - we should all be
able to work together.
I'm not going to be able to bend the entire user base in the forums to
not "bitch". That comes out of developing that sense of acceptance that
*some* people will want to use the forums. Some will use them from the
web interface, some will use them from the NNTP interface, some will
prefer IRC, some will prefer the MLs - there's a good mix of available
options, and no *one* method is the end-all, be-all of community
interaction.
Swearing at the users who choose one you don't happen to like is
counterproductive. Is the forum structure perfect? No, it isn't - but
it's what we've got so far, and for many of the users, it's working
pretty well. The vast majority of the posts are on-topic and don't
involve a lot of what you call 'bitching' - read the "Help" sections
rather than the "soapbox" section, and you'll see a fair amount of honest
help being sought and provided. Many of the posts don't result in any
sort of need to escalate a bug, because it's users learning how to use
openSUSE. But sometimes there are bugs that come up, and to ignore those
reports because they didn't come through the ML seems a little
counterproductive to me.
They *should* be in bugzilla, if they're bugs, but providing a clear
escalation path from the forums (or the MLs or wherever) would be a good
thing.
You'll note that that's in the *soapbox* forum, which is generally not a
place to post if you want to be taken seriously in the forums.
The soapbox is self-described as "Strong opinions about mostly
anything". It's not a support forum, nor is it intended to be taken
seriously.
Have a look in the forums where people are actually being helped, and
you'll see a very different dynamic at work.
I personally haven't been resistant to any *constructive* criticisms.
Saying "D00D, IT SUXORSS!!!@!@!" isn't particularly constructive or
helpful.
Swearing at the admins and membership also isn't particularly helpful.
So let's reset and try to start off on the right foot here, you and me
(at least) and *help* each other rather than attack each other.
Jim
--
Jim Henderson
Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
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Help those of us who run those forums communicate more effectively with
the membership there. *Please*.
I have no idea what you define as "membership" but the communication
channels are well defined.
I'm talking about the members in the forum - not the openSUSE project
members.
This is why we need to have a common set of terms as a baseline for
discussion.
The point isn't "hate everyone else because they're not on the forums"
but what I have long sensed is a frustration on the part of some of the
forum members that the forums are thought of as "second class".
The forum members are no "second class" but they simply fail to
acknowledge that bitching on said forums doesn't help anyone. So they
either will start to use communication channels that are used by the
rest of the world to provide their input or their input will get lost
within all that mess that currently makes up those "forums".
This is the core of the problem. You say the forum membership isn't
second class, but then you describe the posts on the forums
(collectively) as "bitching" and say that they need to "use
communications that are used by the rest of the world". By definition,
you've just relegated those users to "second class" status.
But some people need the catharsis of getting all their frustrations
out on the table before they can move forward.
How about starting to "contribute" then in any way? Either test stuff
_and_ file it via the proper channels (not those "forums" but bugzilla
and so on). Also we are in need of documentation, packaging and so on.
Point being bitching on said "forums" doesn't help anyone and most of
them can't be arsed to contribute more than spamming there which doesn't
qualify as useful contribution.
The openSUSE forums *are* an official channel. They're hosted by the
openSUSE project, at forums.opensuse.org.
Again, what should we do ?
Help us clarify what needs clarified, understand where the community
members in the forums are coming from, and make the forum members feel
like a valued part of the community. Let's face it - many of the
openSUSE user base use the forums to get help, and they get some good
help in the forums - but the developer presence in the forums is
practically nonexistent.
TBH, I don't give a rats ass about some mindless bubbling. If you want
to contribute it is pretty obvious (e.g. report broken stuff in bugzilla
and fix anything you encounter broken - which also includes missing docs
on the wiki which shouldn't be that hard to do, or learn packaging or
help people out or .... ).
I don't find this particularly helpful, Stephan. People need to be able
to ask for help - and they do in the forums. it's not about "mindless
bubbling" but about people who do not have the knowledge or skills to
file a bug report with the information a developer needs.
Sitting back and telling the users "you're doing it wrong" doesn't
encourage users to learn how to contribute. If you want to build a
stronger community of *contributors*, you have to start with a community
of *users* (since by definition, the contributors come out of the pool of
users). Alienating the user base is not a good way to grow a community
of contributors. Telling them they're stupid (which you have in effect
done) also doesn't. Think about it - how would YOU react to being told
that you're stupid for using a resource that has been provided by the
project? I imagine you'd be pretty angry.
I've suggested in the thread in the forums (and I'll suggest here as
well) that what might help with this is for the openSUSE developer
community to leverage the forums as a first point of contact for users
and work out (with those of us who are the admins in the forums) a
means for issues to be escalated from the forum membership to the
developers. Right now there's no real good guideline that I've seen
other than "file a bug in bugzilla" - which makes the forum users feel
disconnected from the project.
As long as those "forums" are handled (via admins) and structurwise as
they are now I wont touch them with a rotten stick. I argued with your
"admins" quite some times to make it more usable structure wise so one
could easily find the interesting parts but no way. Now finally take -
e.g. linux-club.de which has quite some better ordering so one could
answer the interesting subjects besides having to dig through some "ITZ
NO WORKZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" crap that is unrelated to the subject. It was
always declined with some "That's included in applications" and so on -
e.g. I couldn't give a fuck about random applications but were
interested in the security and server part - but no, "you" (as in the
"forum" admins) refused to create some specific topics for those ....
Do you have some past here that is not apparent to me? I *am* one of the
admins over there, but I'm relatively new as well.
When's the last time you looked at the structure?
I'll read the other threads, hoping that they're a bit more on topic.
And I'd even happily take position on each of those attacks, if
someone manages to make a civil and focused discussion out of it.
Let's work together on this - as I said above, it's important to
understand where this audience is coming from; it's a mix of technical
and non-technical users, which in and of itself can be a volatile mix
because of differences in how those two groups communicate.
Well, said audience has to accept that not everyones worlds spins around
those "forums". So how about they simply accept this and adapt?
Turn that statement on its head; the audience you are a part of also has
to accept that not everyone's world spins around the mailing lists.
40,000+ users in the forum. How many on the MLs?
I'm not saying this is a question of "MLs vs. forums" - we should all be
able to work together.
forum), the forums feel very disconnected from the rest of the project.
Then how about stop bitching "OMG they don't use the forums but some
years older mailing list, it has to be some conspiracy. Finally get over
it and accept that most devs do NOT use that forum since it is quite
some waste of time (accessibility and structure wise)
I'm not going to be able to bend the entire user base in the forums to
not "bitch". That comes out of developing that sense of acceptance that
*some* people will want to use the forums. Some will use them from the
web interface, some will use them from the NNTP interface, some will
prefer IRC, some will prefer the MLs - there's a good mix of available
options, and no *one* method is the end-all, be-all of community
interaction.
Swearing at the users who choose one you don't happen to like is
counterproductive. Is the forum structure perfect? No, it isn't - but
it's what we've got so far, and for many of the users, it's working
pretty well. The vast majority of the posts are on-topic and don't
involve a lot of what you call 'bitching' - read the "Help" sections
rather than the "soapbox" section, and you'll see a fair amount of honest
help being sought and provided. Many of the posts don't result in any
sort of need to escalate a bug, because it's users learning how to use
openSUSE. But sometimes there are bugs that come up, and to ignore those
reports because they didn't come through the ML seems a little
counterproductive to me.
They *should* be in bugzilla, if they're bugs, but providing a clear
escalation path from the forums (or the MLs or wherever) would be a good
thing.
I think it also starts by acknowledging that things haven't worked as
smoothly as they could have, and that the forums by and large have been
the "red-headed stepchild" of the project (especially as far as
developer involvement is concerned - James Tan is a notable exception
in providing assistance in the Studio forum; there may be others I'm
not aware of, though).
Now take e.g. that
http://forums.opensuse.org/community/soapbox/440294-kde-3- a.html thread
and wonder yourself why anyone with a sane mind wont touch those
"forums" with a rotten stick.
You'll note that that's in the *soapbox* forum, which is generally not a
place to post if you want to be taken seriously in the forums.
The soapbox is self-described as "Strong opinions about mostly
anything". It's not a support forum, nor is it intended to be taken
seriously.
Have a look in the forums where people are actually being helped, and
you'll see a very different dynamic at work.
I haven't talked this over at any length with the other forum
administrators (I'm one of the 3 admins), but would be willing to do
whatever I can to help facilitate such a discussion with the rest of
the admins and other staff.
Well, considering that your current structure plain sucks and you have
been resistent to any arguments since more than a year I dare to say it
is time you think it over.
I personally haven't been resistant to any *constructive* criticisms.
Saying "D00D, IT SUXORSS!!!@!@!" isn't particularly constructive or
helpful.
Swearing at the admins and membership also isn't particularly helpful.
So let's reset and try to start off on the right foot here, you and me
(at least) and *help* each other rather than attack each other.
Jim
--
Jim Henderson
Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxx
For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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