Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-project (783 mails)

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Re: [opensuse-project] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)
  • From: Boyd Lynn Gerber <gerberb@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 11:19:16 -0600
  • Message-id: <alpine.LNX.2.00.0908231056160.19513@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
On Sat, 22 Aug 2009, Peter Albrecht wrote:
Exactly how much time they need "to be convinced that they are able to
treat the OS as only a tool on which they are able to run their
business"? SLE already has a 60 days evaluation period... if the only
problem is that it's too short just make it longer, no need for a new
distro.
If you can argue Novell is losing clients, and so money, because the
evaluation period is too short I'm sure they will make it longer in no
time. But I expect they to have studied this at deep, not just
selected 60 at random.

The problem is really one of time for me. I often find depending on
industry, that I have to add openSUSE packages, or customize their
configuration. It is hard in these economic times, for me to take the
risk. Basically, I have been having to do everything for free till they
get that "warm fuzy". The time for them to get that "warm fuzzy" has
been taking about 6-8 months. So lets look at things a bit.

I'm not sure if I did get that right, so just use an example: You do
install packages from openSUSE 11.1 into SLE 11 because the customer needs
this application. Your (or your customers) concern is now exactly what?
That there will be no updates or patches available for this application
after openSUSE 11.1 is no longer supported?

I have brought up several things from my experiences with clients/customers. One complaint was that openSUSE was only supported for 24 months. They want the OS to be just a tool that they can use without a lot of effort or knowledge. They want to run their businesses to make money. They do not want to worry about OS. They then brought up the various LTS OS's and asked if openSUSE had one. Of course the answer was no. Problem is that their is nothing like CentOS for Novell's offerings.

How could the proposed "openSLE 11" solve this problem?

The openSUSE LTS or openSLE would provide them longer support window.

* Somebody would need to provide all the patches and updates in the
future. And that person can already do that now using the openSUSE
Build Service.
If you need to run an application from SUSE 10.1 on SLES 10 SP2, you
could provide up-to-date versions via the openSUSE Build Service. I don't
see that "openSLE" would go any different way.

It would not. We would use the OBS for either/both of these ideas.

* If the customer decides after 6-8 months of testing "Yes, we go with
Linux", what would be the reason for not going with SLE but rather with
"openSLE"?

The issue is mine. I do not want to install SLE(D,S) unless they pay for it. It is necessary to have all security fixes and updates applied. Running an unpatched system is just a big "No No for me!"

Choices
1. Install openSUSE (now only an additional 10 months to a year before
they have to install a new openSUSE.
a. No Large Company (to blame for things going wrong or security
issues.
b. To short of a lifetime. (What to have it just be a tool not a
worry or concern.
c. Constanyly changing and having to work at the tool instead of
just using it to make a profit.
d. Bugs fixed quickly or more quickly (perception).

And all these points are good reasons to use SLE. It's free as well, but
you pay for the services. I think it is a problem that many companies
still think "Oh, Linux is free, so I want everything for free. And it
should be supported for 5+ years with providing patches for free." That is
the big misunderstanding we all need to work on.

Agreed many have that idea. The thing is to show them value in using a long term supported OS. My clients really do not want to know the details about the OS. They want it to just work. "After all the OS is just a tool."

2. Install SLE(S,D)
a. Large company with rep.
b. Bad Novel experience, not SuSE.

What kind of "bad" experience? Is this something you could do as it's your
customer? If Novell focuses on the large customers, it would be the chance
for Novell partners or independent companies to provide that service.

Many come from the Networking Days of the Novell products. A lot stems from being a Novell partner. Many of us have stopped being Novell Partners. It was not worth the $$$ to stay a partner. We have been at conferences where upper management make statements but the reality is "We really do not support ...." At the same conference. Really big mixed messages. But the message is clear with how SMB's are treated.

d. Have to pay before the "warm fuzzy" (My time unbillable)
(Way I have been doing things in the past.) I am changin my
pratice and now everything must be paid in advance. Which leads
to the next comment I received today"
e. "To much up front cost before seeing benefits"

How would that change in an "openSLE" environment? Would you not charge for your work with that? Again, my point from above: Everybody offering services for Open Source Software needs to make clear that you do of course have to pay for the services. Just the software is free.

An openSLE or openSUSE LTS would provide the enviroment for those doing business selling support to the SMB's. This would allow us to grow the OS in the SMB's business and demostrate that the OS really can be thought of as just a tool. Someone has to pay for the effort. Wheter it is with time or money. Open Source Software (OSS) does have a cost. The group doing the work for either/both openSLE or openSUSE LTS would be paying for the extended support window with their time and efforts.

f. Good support for extended period (7 years) "Big plus"
g. Plus/minus GNOME (depends on point of view). "Comment
today "KDE is a second class citizen"

Both KDE and GNOME are offered for SLE. And I don't see a bigger difference
between the two on SLE compared to those on openSUSE (if you take 11.1
which is the base for SLE 11).

Yes, but when you call on SLE and the questions are KDE related you are treated a whole lot different than if you are using GNOME. (My experience) The issue is how things are being done on SLE(D,S). A lot more effort has to be done to install KDE.

Let's leave this part to the KDE vs GNOME that will always be a struggle between the two choices and not go down this lane.

--
Boyd Gerber <gerberb@xxxxxxxxx> 801 849-0213
ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047
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