I'm not a Novell employee, but I have some technical background, so: On Fri, 2007-10-12 at 16:46 +0200, Maciej Pilichowski wrote:
Hello,
The reason for this mail is quite simple -- I've been using open/suse for a long time and I am afraid to see how opensuse is getting better, yet on the other hand is getting worse. Better -- because for example computer boots faster, worse -- because to do the same thing as before, user has to download extra packages, download "outdated" packages or learn again how to make things work with new tools.
For me meaning of upgrade is simply -- user should upgrade system and everything should work as before, minimum. The only changes could be: everything is faster, more secure, reliable, etc.
Good goal to have.
Examples: opensuse dropped smbfs package some time ago, and this done silently, when you try to use smbfs... nothing, no information why, what should user do. losetup worked perfectly well in 10.2, after upgrade user is supposed to set from scratch her/his configuration to make things work.
Why doesn't cifs work? Is there a bugzilla.novell.com bug about this? The openSUSE community (Novell, SUSE, and third party contributors who want to see openSUSE succeed) can't fix what we don't know about. Basically.. a buggy program isn't an excuse to keep an older unmaintained software around. The goal should be to make its replacement work. If there is a case it doesn't work, file a bug about it and someone will fix it.
I don't want only to complain, because it is wasting time. My propositions:
a) let's say user works with OS X.Y with package P installed older than the basic package from this OS version (example opensuse 10.2 and cups 1.1) -- do not touch such packages! it is clear that user intentionally downgraded this package to work with it, it was her/his will so do not force upgrade of such packages
openSUSE would have to ship a database of every openSUSE version / package version combination in order for this to work. Even then, not very safe for security reasons, et. al.
b) dropping software (like smbfs (*)) -- provide fake packages (I already reported this idea), so when user tries to use it explain what she/he should do with it b.1) however this example (*) shows a bad judgement -- I think it is better to provide unmaintained code to help users, than to remove such software and make things worse for users (cifs does not work so well)
And who do you blame when the unmaintained package has a security bug that allows someone to rootkit you, and it happens? Do you expect Novell to fix a security problem in an unmaintained piece of software that isn't even shipped in the supported versions?
c) if one tool is replaced with another (losetup example) provide converter, so user could call losetup-backward-compability script and all arguments would be translated to the new tool used in opensuse
This is a good idea potentially.
d) if it is only possible (technically) maintain backward compatibility, ignoring current userbase in such manner reminds me of one big firm and its attitude -- it is bad example to follow
Upgrading works for the most part. I have a server at work that has been upgraded from SL 10.1 to OS 10.2 and now to OS 10.3.. not a clean install, but being upgraded. Everything seamlessly worked. In your case, it didn't. But a bug report needs to be submitted so that someone can look at it and figure out why it doesn't work.
In general: it is better to make things work in one place (opensuse distribution) so every user could benefit from it, than ignoring users workplace and making them fix system after upgrade to the state before upgrade. This just a wasting time.
Upgrading should just work. If there is a case it doesn't, its a bug that needs to be fixed.
Backward compatibility really matters -- it is no use I get new, great cups if it does not work for me at all. The same goes for every other package. Currently this issue is being treated too lightly (in my opinion).
It matters to us all. But backwards compatibility for the sake of backwards compatibility is a bad thing. Look at Microsoft Windows and their bloat for example. openSUSE already ship some "compatibility packages" for older versions of select libraries that newer programs depend on.
Thank you for your time, have a nice day, bye
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