On Wednesday 23 May 2007 16:44, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: First, you do not need to send the return mail to me AND to the list. All you need to do is to send it to the list.
As I tried to tell you already, the members of the community are not barbarians, as you want to describe them. They're fair guys, usually experienced with openSUSE and Linux, who try to help people who asks question and look for help.
My experience, and the experience of many others, is contrary to your testimonial. [ this is common knowledge... you would have to be absent, blind, and deaf to have missed it, but in case you DID miss it... never fear, that's what we have archives for.
How many? Could you list some name of those barbarians and quotes where someone who was really insulted or attacked? All you need to do to get a sampling is to search this site:
http://lists.opensuse.org ...for any or all of the following phrases just as starters: "stfu" "shut the fuck up" "kick your ass" ... or pick some of George Carlin's "seven words you can't say on TV"... Well... you get the idea... please do not play games here and pretend that this is not a problem, or that you are unaware of the problem. When the individuals involved (and they are a relative few) are asked to cease and desist--- then usually they escalate with defiance and make it clear that they have no intention of following any sort of Guiding Principles... barbarians never capitulate--- and they must always have the last foul word.
A fair person allows another to state his opinion freely without swearing at him, calling him names, or using vulgar sexual expletives particularly in defiance to the sensibilities and suggestions of *many* other participants.
Names were never used for what I remember. I again ask for examples, quotes, name of authors. You're making serious accusations, so you must have good profs. Proofs, not profs... but the word you were searching for is "evidence". [see above]
No, some are not fair, and some are most certainly barbarians. The question is one of perception anyway... and perception my friend is 99% of the game--- do opensuse project participants and leaders want a barbarian perception in the fair and free market place of ideas--- as it pertains to the success or failure of opensuse? Think about it.
What you don't understand is that the success of openSUSE is bound to its quality, not to some words said on a mailing list. I would really love to let developers work on software (and they're working hard, it's quite evident), and let this hypothetical marketing (real marketing is something else) stuff out. The quality of the distro is very important... but not more important than good PR, and at the moment Novell has a serious PR problem. Suse is the top distro in quality (I mean this, bar none)... but it is the number two distro in distribution, second to Ubuntu. And the reason is PR, not quality. You may be in denial, but give it some more thought. Please consider something we have not discussed in detail yet... I work with folks (some of them quite young-- K-12) as an advocate for computing alternatives, open source development, the free software movement... and just plain fun with opensuse. The foul language and hostile demeanor of some of the participants to the opensuse lists (I monitor them all) prevent me from introducing the kids to this community--- its just not a safe place for them. You want someone to beta test Alpha4... wow... give it to a twelve-year-old... she'll find your bugs for you. But not now... not with this unruly behemoth. And its not just kids either... many adults are offended with sexual expletives, or blasphemy, or insults out of bathroom humor. Respect for individuals and the diversity of their respective cultures and their sensitivities mandates that all participants follow some form of protocol (call them Guiding Principles or what-have-you). Flagrant disregard for the sensibilities of others on a public mailing list (even very specific ones like opensuse) is a form of barbarism.
I think an honest and forthright adherence to the Guiding Principles will go a long way in correcting this misunderstanding of perception.
Human communication is made of perception too, there is nothing to correct about that. [ see above ] To understand what needs to be corrected, just search the archives using the suggested phrases I listed for you (there are many more, but those will get you started) and then compare those snippets with the proposed Guiding Principles, and then honestly ask yourself whether anything needs to be corrected. Certainly The Guiding Principles and the opensuse mailing list archives are contradictory at the minimum, and perhaps represent hypocrisy at the extreme. But Please, do not try to pretend there is no problem.
-- Kind regards, M Harris <>< --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org