Feature changed by: Ned Ulbricht (ned_ulbricht) Feature #312233, revision 14 Title: New Install Method openSUSE Distribution: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Desirable Requested by: E. Mangini (c0ff33) Partner organization: openSUSE.org Description: Ability to install from a running system. With the 11.4 release, I was reminded again how stupid it is to require a shutdow to boot to cd/usb to watch files being copied unable to use my system. We should be able to start the install from a running system. This install should copy all needed files to specified partition(s), perform normal setup tasks, and add an entry to grub. Then -when I'm ready to reboot- I select the new install, which would do a first-boot completing whatever tasks could not be performed during the initial install. In addition to the obvious "I get to use my system" benefit, there are others. No more buring to cd or usb, just download and run an install file or , for example, openSuse 12.1 could be an option in yast. The install could be smarter, checking for and installing "favorite" apps (and their settings) or preventing the install of "taboo" apps are two simple examples. Discussion: #1: Michal Papis (mpapis) (2011-04-16 23:26:48) I had installed gentoo from openSuSE this way, why it is not possible to install openSuSE itself this way ? #2: E. Mangini (c0ff33) (2011-04-18 17:57:24) (reply to #1) Just to be clear, I'm not talking about installing into a virtual machine. I use Virtualbox but it's not the same as installing to actual hardware. So, unless I've missed something, which is completely possible, please explain your Gentoo install. #3: Joseph Mitzen (duncreg) (2011-04-18 23:47:02) Do I understand that the whole point is that you want to be using install A while creating a new install B? How often does one install multiple copies on the same machine to make this useful? There already exists a live CD to let you work while installing as well. In addition, you can upgrade to a new version via zypper without burning anything. The DVD also gives you wide control over what is installed and what isn't. If the system needs to reboot during install or update then it's pointless starting the install from a running system. Existing programs, desktop search programs, etc. could start accessing the new partition while it's still being installed. Partitioning would be highly problematic as partitions will already be mounted - if you're installing to the same drive, you can't just unmount all of your partitions to repartition the drive. There seems to be a whole host of (dangerous) problems with this idea and little perceived benefit over a regular install or live CD install and a very limited appeal - people installing multiple copies of the OS to one system for whom the 20-some minutes or a live CD aren't enough. #4: E. Mangini (c0ff33) (2011-04-19 05:11:43) (reply to #3) First, the goal isn't to "install multiple copies on the same machine", it's to treat an os install just like any other software. You wouldn't tolerate a required reboot to install say firefox. It would be nice if the os install could be as simple. As to zypper, an upgrade isn't a clean install and also isn't always wise/possible (11.2 to 11.4) and could take even longer (11.2 to 11.3 to 11.4). Yes, the DVD does give me "wide control over what is installed". The point is to make the install smarter so the user doesn't have to wade through menus and manually de/select. Which, btw, could be a feature of the current install method. As to the reboot, I assume it's required since we've collectively rebooted a few billion times. The goal is to delay that until i'm ready to shutdown and choose the new os for testing. And while were on the boot/shutdown topic, it's not always a single system going down. I have a number of virtual machines running and they also must shut down. So it's not "20-some minutes" even when the install goes well, which they frequently don't (tried, ubuntu 11.04 beta yet? good luck.). And when the current install method fails, unless you have another system handy you're done. It's reboot into existing system, search for solution, reboot into install dvd, try install again, oops failed again, lather-rinse-repeat. Partitioning is not "problematic" and you don't have to unmount anything. You create and mount a partition, as you can do right now, and tell the new installer to go stick openSuse 12.1 over there. Simple, and exactly as dangerous as any other install. Finally, I am surprised it does appear to zero appeal. Not a problem, we toss some stuff out there and we see what sticks. Thanks for the feedback. #6: Ned Ulbricht (ned_ulbricht) (2011-04-20 19:47:33) (reply to #4) You know, the reason this feature has such low appeal is pro'lly 'cause the dist upgrade procedure for openSUSE begins: 1) Yank power cord from UPS in order to test failover system. 2) ... #7: Joseph Mitzen (duncreg) (2011-04-20 20:45:06) (reply to #4) "You create and mount a partition, as you can do right now, " I can't do that right now. If I do that in gParted it'll complain about being able to write to the partition table if other partitions on the drive are already mounted. Depending on where/how you repartitioned, sda6 could now be sda7, for instance. #5: Ned Ulbricht (ned_ulbricht) (2011-04-20 18:46:37) (reply to #3) I've been installing my Debian machines this way since the Sarge to Etch upgrade. The idea is that on a production box, you want to get all ready for the upgrade, then shutdown, wait for reboot, and be up and running again on the new version. With the ability to immediately roll back to the previous installation if something doesn't work. As far as "how often", well I don't ever do that on my openSUSE machines. #8: E. Mangini (c0ff33) (2011-04-22 00:10:37) (reply to #5) Did a quick search and found: http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/apds03.html.en I'd like things a bit smarter / more automated, but it proves the concept is valid and there is a need. Plus, I knew someone had to think of this before. Thanks for the tip. #9: Ned Ulbricht (ned_ulbricht) (2011-04-22 06:11:00) (reply to #8) At the risk of going waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy off-topic: Those Debian instructions omit one important step. You want to make sure that no services are started up in the chroot environment. I'll refer you to Debian /usr/share/doc/sysv-rc/ for more on that. Bringing this comment back on topic. A hosted installer for openSUSE would need to carefully limit the impact of rpm install scripts on the host environment. + #10: Ned Ulbricht (ned_ulbricht) (2011-04-22 15:40:24) + Use case: + One of the trickier complications to consider is when the end-user + requires an out-of-tree kernel driver for hardware attached to the + install target. In this case, the entire business case for that + computer may be to drive that hardware. + If the hardware is a PCI card (or, bog help us) an ISA card, then if + we're lucky, the end-user may have a spare. In that case, or in the + case where the hardware is attached via another standard interface + (serial, network, HPIB, etc); it may make more sense to provision an + entirely new computer, rather than to attempt a software + install/upgrade in-place. A new box may be brought up with the standard + openSUSE installer, and then the upgrade is accomplished by swapping + out the computers. + OTOH, if the end-user does not have an economically available spare for + bespoke hardware, then it may make most sense not to touch the existing + installation until the hardware reaches end-of-life. (Although I've + been personally told that that attitude is "stupid".) + What motivates an in-place install/upgrade is a desire for new + capabilities, or the need to comply with regulatory, audit, maintenance + or security requirements. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/312233