Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-features (150 mails)
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[openFATE 312233] New Install Method
- From: fate_noreply@xxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:47:08 +0200 (CEST)
- Message-id: <feature-312233-9@keeper.suse.de>
Feature changed by: Ned Ulbricht (ned_ulbricht)
Feature #312233, revision 9
Title: New Install Method
openSUSE Distribution: Unconfirmed
Priority
Requester: Desirable
Requested by: E. Mangini (c0ff33)
Partner organization: openSUSE.org
Description:
Ability to install from a running system. With the 11.4 release, I was
reminded again how stupid it is to require a shutdow to boot to cd/usb
to watch files being copied unable to use my system.
We should be able to start the install from a running system. This
install should copy all needed files to specified partition(s), perform
normal setup tasks, and add an entry to grub. Then -when I'm ready to
reboot- I select the new install, which would do a first-boot
completing whatever tasks could not be performed during the initial
install.
In addition to the obvious "I get to use my system" benefit, there are
others. No more buring to cd or usb, just download and run an install
file or , for example, openSuse 12.1 could be an option in yast.
The install could be smarter, checking for and installing "favorite"
apps (and their settings) or preventing the install of "taboo" apps are
two simple examples.
Discussion:
#1: Michal Papis (mpapis) (2011-04-16 23:26:48)
I had installed gentoo from openSuSE this way, why it is not possible
to install openSuSE itself this way ?
#2: E. Mangini (c0ff33) (2011-04-18 17:57:24) (reply to #1)
Just to be clear, I'm not talking about installing into a virtual
machine. I use Virtualbox but it's not the same as installing to actual
hardware. So, unless I've missed something, which is completely
possible, please explain your Gentoo install.
#3: Joseph Mitzen (duncreg) (2011-04-18 23:47:02)
Do I understand that the whole point is that you want to be using
install A while creating a new install B? How often does one install
multiple copies on the same machine to make this useful? There already
exists a live CD to let you work while installing as well. In addition,
you can upgrade to a new version via zypper without burning anything.
The DVD also gives you wide control over what is installed and what
isn't. If the system needs to reboot during install or update then it's
pointless starting the install from a running system. Existing
programs, desktop search programs, etc. could start accessing the new
partition while it's still being installed. Partitioning would be
highly problematic as partitions will already be mounted - if you're
installing to the same drive, you can't just unmount all of your
partitions to repartition the drive.
There seems to be a whole host of (dangerous) problems with this idea
and little perceived benefit over a regular install or live CD install
and a very limited appeal - people installing multiple copies of the OS
to one system for whom the 20-some minutes or a live CD aren't enough.
#4: E. Mangini (c0ff33) (2011-04-19 05:11:43) (reply to #3)
First, the goal isn't to "install multiple copies on the same machine",
it's to treat an os install just like any other software. You wouldn't
tolerate a required reboot to install say firefox. It would be nice if
the os install could be as simple. As to zypper, an upgrade isn't a
clean install and also isn't always wise/possible (11.2 to 11.4) and
could take even longer (11.2 to 11.3 to 11.4). Yes, the DVD does give
me "wide control over what is installed". The point is to make the
install smarter so the user doesn't have to wade through menus and
manually de/select. Which, btw, could be a feature of the current
install method. As to the reboot, I assume it's required since we've
collectively rebooted a few billion times. The goal is to delay that
until i'm ready to shutdown and choose the new os for testing. And
while were on the boot/shutdown topic, it's not always a single system
going down. I have a number of virtual machines running and they also
must shut down. So it's not "20-some minutes" even when the install
goes well, which they frequently don't (tried, ubuntu 11.04 beta yet?
good luck.). And when the current install method fails, unless you have
another system handy you're done. It's reboot into existing system,
search for solution, reboot into install dvd, try install again, oops
failed again, lather-rinse-repeat. Partitioning is not "problematic"
and you don't have to unmount anything. You create and mount a
partition, as you can do right now, and tell the new installer to go
stick openSuse 12.1 over there. Simple, and exactly as dangerous as any
other install. Finally, I am surprised it does appear to zero appeal.
Not a problem, we toss some stuff out there and we see what sticks.
Thanks for the feedback.
+ #5: Ned Ulbricht (ned_ulbricht) (2011-04-20 18:46:37) (reply to #3)
+ I've been installing my Debian machines this way since the Sarge to
+ Etch upgrade. The idea is that on a production box, you want to get all
+ ready for the upgrade, then shutdown, wait for reboot, and be up and
+ running again on the new version. With the ability to immediately roll
+ back to the previous installation if something doesn't work.
+ As far as "how often", well I don't ever do that on my openSUSE
+ machines.
--
openSUSE Feature:
https://features.opensuse.org/312233
Feature #312233, revision 9
Title: New Install Method
openSUSE Distribution: Unconfirmed
Priority
Requester: Desirable
Requested by: E. Mangini (c0ff33)
Partner organization: openSUSE.org
Description:
Ability to install from a running system. With the 11.4 release, I was
reminded again how stupid it is to require a shutdow to boot to cd/usb
to watch files being copied unable to use my system.
We should be able to start the install from a running system. This
install should copy all needed files to specified partition(s), perform
normal setup tasks, and add an entry to grub. Then -when I'm ready to
reboot- I select the new install, which would do a first-boot
completing whatever tasks could not be performed during the initial
install.
In addition to the obvious "I get to use my system" benefit, there are
others. No more buring to cd or usb, just download and run an install
file or , for example, openSuse 12.1 could be an option in yast.
The install could be smarter, checking for and installing "favorite"
apps (and their settings) or preventing the install of "taboo" apps are
two simple examples.
Discussion:
#1: Michal Papis (mpapis) (2011-04-16 23:26:48)
I had installed gentoo from openSuSE this way, why it is not possible
to install openSuSE itself this way ?
#2: E. Mangini (c0ff33) (2011-04-18 17:57:24) (reply to #1)
Just to be clear, I'm not talking about installing into a virtual
machine. I use Virtualbox but it's not the same as installing to actual
hardware. So, unless I've missed something, which is completely
possible, please explain your Gentoo install.
#3: Joseph Mitzen (duncreg) (2011-04-18 23:47:02)
Do I understand that the whole point is that you want to be using
install A while creating a new install B? How often does one install
multiple copies on the same machine to make this useful? There already
exists a live CD to let you work while installing as well. In addition,
you can upgrade to a new version via zypper without burning anything.
The DVD also gives you wide control over what is installed and what
isn't. If the system needs to reboot during install or update then it's
pointless starting the install from a running system. Existing
programs, desktop search programs, etc. could start accessing the new
partition while it's still being installed. Partitioning would be
highly problematic as partitions will already be mounted - if you're
installing to the same drive, you can't just unmount all of your
partitions to repartition the drive.
There seems to be a whole host of (dangerous) problems with this idea
and little perceived benefit over a regular install or live CD install
and a very limited appeal - people installing multiple copies of the OS
to one system for whom the 20-some minutes or a live CD aren't enough.
#4: E. Mangini (c0ff33) (2011-04-19 05:11:43) (reply to #3)
First, the goal isn't to "install multiple copies on the same machine",
it's to treat an os install just like any other software. You wouldn't
tolerate a required reboot to install say firefox. It would be nice if
the os install could be as simple. As to zypper, an upgrade isn't a
clean install and also isn't always wise/possible (11.2 to 11.4) and
could take even longer (11.2 to 11.3 to 11.4). Yes, the DVD does give
me "wide control over what is installed". The point is to make the
install smarter so the user doesn't have to wade through menus and
manually de/select. Which, btw, could be a feature of the current
install method. As to the reboot, I assume it's required since we've
collectively rebooted a few billion times. The goal is to delay that
until i'm ready to shutdown and choose the new os for testing. And
while were on the boot/shutdown topic, it's not always a single system
going down. I have a number of virtual machines running and they also
must shut down. So it's not "20-some minutes" even when the install
goes well, which they frequently don't (tried, ubuntu 11.04 beta yet?
good luck.). And when the current install method fails, unless you have
another system handy you're done. It's reboot into existing system,
search for solution, reboot into install dvd, try install again, oops
failed again, lather-rinse-repeat. Partitioning is not "problematic"
and you don't have to unmount anything. You create and mount a
partition, as you can do right now, and tell the new installer to go
stick openSuse 12.1 over there. Simple, and exactly as dangerous as any
other install. Finally, I am surprised it does appear to zero appeal.
Not a problem, we toss some stuff out there and we see what sticks.
Thanks for the feedback.
+ #5: Ned Ulbricht (ned_ulbricht) (2011-04-20 18:46:37) (reply to #3)
+ I've been installing my Debian machines this way since the Sarge to
+ Etch upgrade. The idea is that on a production box, you want to get all
+ ready for the upgrade, then shutdown, wait for reboot, and be up and
+ running again on the new version. With the ability to immediately roll
+ back to the previous installation if something doesn't work.
+ As far as "how often", well I don't ever do that on my openSUSE
+ machines.
--
openSUSE Feature:
https://features.opensuse.org/312233
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