Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-features (632 mails)

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[openFATE 310238] Restore KDE3 as part of openSUSE
  • From: fate_noreply@xxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 14:56:43 +0100 (CET)
  • Message-id: <feature-310238-15@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Feature changed by: Andreas Jaeger (a_jaeger)
Feature #310238, revision 15
- Title: Restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE
+ Title: Restore KDE3 as part of openSUSE

- openSUSE-11.4: Unconfirmed
+ openSUSE-11.4: Rejected by Andreas Jaeger (a_jaeger)
+ reject date: 2010-11-04 14:55:49
+ reject reason: See comments.
Priority
Requester: Important

Requested by: Ilya Chernykh (ansus)

Description:
I suggest to restore KDE3 as part of OpenSUSE distribution and include
the possibility to install KDE3 into installer.
OpenSUSE is a distribution which is known for its tolerance towards
different desktop environments such as Gnome, KDE, LXDE and gives the
widest DE choice possibilities than any other distribution I know.
This is specially important in the light of KDE4 being still unstable
and of beta quality: Plasma still crashes, spatial mode in Konqueror is
still broken and multiple features still missing.
Inclusion of KDE3 in OpenSUSE could help attract multiple users of
other Linux distributions which have discontinued KDE3. KDE3 is still
widely used and popular environment, much more so than some others
already included in OpenSUSE. It also helps easier migration from
Windows as it offers familiar and classical interface. I cannot imagine
a school teacher, office worker or a bureaucrat using KDE4.
One of the reasons against KDE3 inclusion was that some claim it is
discontinued upstream. But a look at the KDE3 svn shows it is still
supported and bugfixed: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/ The
last commit being only 6 days ago. Since our 11.2 release multiple
features were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive,
vcards, kmail, kcommander, kaffeine and the help system.
There is another branch of KDE3 development, a project known as
Trinity, hosted in the same SVN repository, which aims on adding new
features to KDE3 and continuous development. While this project gives
hope of the future of KDE3, I currently would not recommend including
their packages in OpenSUSE, and suggest to stick with the above-
mentioned vanilla branch.
Maintainig KDE3 currently would not require much resources, since the
most difficult step - adapting KDE3 to co-existence with KDE4, moving
it to another namespace, renaming packages, is already accomplished by
the efforts of Novell and the SUSE team. Most other distributions could
not cope with this challenge, but this titanic effort is already in the
past for OpenSUSE. That would be even more unreasonable to drop KDE3
just after the bridge is left behind.
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Discussion:
#1: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-26 17:52:16)
Who will maintain the code? KDE3 is not maintained anymore, Qt3 is not
maintained anymore. Maintain both, Qt3 and KDE3 is a LOT of work and
needs LOTS of resources: openSUSE cannot do it. If a reliable project
appears to maintain and improve kde3 then this could be done, but now
it is impossible.

#2: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 18:10:05) (reply to #1)
Qt3 is maintained anyway because many applications require. Anyway
there is no problem with Qt3 maintainance as the code does not change.
The same is with KDE3. And if you read this feature request, you can
see that KDE3 continues to receive updates upstream.

#3: Jos Poortvliet (jospoortvliet) (2010-07-26 19:08:03)
Sorry Ilya, but Ricardo is right.
KDE3 is not maintained anymore. Any commits are most likely scripty
(automated commits) or very basic changes. Maybe work on KDE PIM 3 for
enterprise. Otherwise, don't expect many changes from upstream.
Qt3 is surely no longer maintained by Trolltech/Nokia.
As you say, as long as the code doesn't change, it will work. However,
many dependencies now have newer versions, no longer compatible with
the older ones KDE 3 was build for.
Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work.
So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned
KDE release with no future or try and stabilize and fix KDE's upcoming
products? Surely, the 4.4 release ain't perfect, but neither is KDE3.
It also suffered from instability and is now lacking many features
compared to the new applications. The KDE 4.4 platform, Plasma 4.4 and
the latest KDE applications are reasonably stable, not perfect but good
enough for daily usage. The Plasma team is working really hard on
stabilizing the upcoming versions, backporting fixes to the 4.4 branch
as well. And the lack of features is also catered for in the upcoming
4.5 release (just days away!)
So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes
sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series.

#4: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-26 21:47:49) (reply to #3)
> Any commits are most likely scripty (automated commits) or very basic
changes.
As you can see even new packages were added: scim-qtimm_11.3. I would
not say it's so trivial. So one developer in one day fixed >6 packages
so they build well now. One day in 8 months - this is all we need.
> Fixing such issues will take a significant amount of work.
One day in 8 months. Too much?
> So what would you rather do - pour resources in an upstream-abandoned
KDE release with no future
I already mentioned the Trinity project which is actively worked on. We
do not need their code right now, but it is definitely not abandoned.
> So all in all, while I also still love KDE 3, I don't think it makes
sense to put in effort which could be directed at the KDE 4 series.
Maintainers work on KDE4 every day (and so far with no success). All we
need for KDE3 is one day in 8 months.
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#6: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2010-07-28 16:14:20) (reply to
#4)
I think you are oversimplifying the process. This time was one day in 8
moths, next time... who knows?
Xorg is changing, Linux kernel is changing, everything is changing BUT
kde3. When the project you mentioned will show it is alive and kicking,
then we will be able to start talking on this issue again. But now,
using a dead code on a live system is not a good idea.

#8: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:11:49) (reply to #6)
Today it has been completely fixed, all packages. Now it is in
excellent form.

#11: Andrew Joakimsen (joak0) (2010-08-14 11:08:20) (reply to #3)
Well there are missing features in KDE4 that nobody wants to take
responsibility for. I would accept your answer if effort was being
placed into KDE4, but it is not. There are issues reported and
rejected. openSUSE just blames upstream for everything. Upstream will
hear nothing of it.

#12: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2010-08-17 15:42:15) (reply to
#11)
It is incorrect to generalise that no effort is being placed into KDE 4
because your issues were rejected.
Development resources are limited and some issues must be
rejected.  openSUSE's very limited development resources are mostly
spent on integration with the openSUSE platform, so we have to bounce
most feature regressions upstream.

#5: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-28 13:56:17)
If someone wants to work on KDE 3, it is possible - we have KDE:KDE3
repo for that. Anything else like putting KDE3 into distro is nonsense.
I suggest to reject this feature.

#7: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 20:10:34) (reply to #5)
Why nonsense?

#9: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2010-07-30 21:17:46) (reply to #7)
Because there is no one willing to maintain KDE3 for the whole
distribution lifetime (which is 18 months now). And to be honest you
need more than one to do it.

#10: Ilya Chernykh (ansus) (2010-07-30 22:29:47) (reply to #9)
The main part of KDE3 (kdebase3-workplace) is already included in
OpenSUSE 11.3 main repo. It includes Kicker, desktop and many other
programs.  The only thing needed to have choice for KDE3 is a small
package kdebase3-session which contains scripts for launching it from
logon screen and an option in the installer to install KDE3.
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+ #14: Andreas Jaeger (a_jaeger) (2010-11-04 14:56:42) (reply to #10)
+ Let's fill the build service project with life for KDE3 first before
+ discussing anything here.

#13: Thomas Garson (tgarson) (2010-11-01 07:37:36)
KDE3 is( was)  to Linux what Windows 2000 interface was to Windows:
It worked, it had all of the features anyone but obsessed gamers ever
wanted and had evolved into being relatively easy to configure. It was
also not a heavy consumer of system resources.
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Sadly, the KDE devellopers, taking their cue from Microsoft (Yes,
Widows envy is alive and well within the Linux community)  could not be
satisfied with "gilding the lilly", they had to "one up" Vista with
more gadgets, gizmos, and layer upon layer of unnecessary crap. This
they did while ignoring such rudimentary features as making it easy for
a user to change font sizes. They redecorated to the pont of confusion.
KDE 4s nightmare of convoluted configuration applets is worse than when
the supermarket rearranges everything so that people will have to walk
every isle to find what they are looking for. It's really pathetic.
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The best user interface I have ever worked with, and I've experience
with Windows, Apple, CommodoreLinux, etc, were the Work[place Shell and
Presentation Manager that were part of OS/2. If you have not
experienced that envorinment, you havbe missed experiencing the best
possible future path to a computer interface that was truly engineered
to be flexible but accessible. Sadly, Microsoft still owns rights to
enough of that code that IBM is preventind from opening it up.
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KDEs direction so dissapoints me that I would gladly switch in a
heartbeat to a platform that overlayed the Workplace Shell/Presentation
Manager environment on top of Linux. I don't mean to run OS/2
applications, as there aren't any that are remotely relavlent any more,
outside of very large closed vertical environs. I just want the luxury
of a flexible, efficient and user friendly GUI for running my Linux
programs, and the occasional WIndows app inside of VMWare/XP. KDE 3 was
well on its way top being that. KDE 4 is a gross failure from the
perspective of most users. It may yet kill Suse and any other distro
that relies on it.
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--
openSUSE Feature:
https://features.opensuse.org/310238

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