Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-features (893 mails)
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[openFATE 306733] Add KDE3 buildservice repository to community list
- From: fate_noreply@xxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 14:03:40 +0200 (CEST)
- Message-id: <feature-306733-27@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Feature changed by: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb)
Feature #306733, revision 27
Title: Add KDE3 buildservice repository to community list
openSUSE-11.2: Rejected by Lubos Lunak (llunak)
reject date: 2009-08-28 16:09:20
reject reason: The KDE:KDE3 repository is unmaintained and does not
even build properly anymore. It is not acceptable to offer such a
repository in the community list.
Priority
Requester: Desirable
Requested by: Karsten König (remur)
Description:
As openSUSE 11.2 will drop KDE3 from main repositories we should make
adding the KDE3 repository as easy as possible, adding KDE3 to the
community repository list would be an easy way to do this and will
point out the unsupported state of the repository.
Use Case:
* Elmar wants to keep using KDE3 as KDE4 still isn't ready for him, he
doesn't mind using a seperate inofficial repository though.
This will make it easy for him to add the repository at install time
and select KDE3
* Karsten hangs around #opensuse-kde and after 11.2 release a lot of
people come and ask how to get KDE3 and start bitching about the
decission to drop it, he can now point out this easy way to add the
repository and help restore order in the channel
Discussion:
#1: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-14 22:00:29)
Vote for this if you are still interested in KDE3! The KDE team has
recently decided to drop 'poorly maintained' KDE3 apps from factory
(currently the only source for KDE3 at os11.2). Nonetheless these apps
may still be more elaborate and stable than their KDE4 counterparts.
For a list of KDE3 apps and such apps not ported to KDE4 (or at least
some of them) you may have a look at
http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Community/kde3_eval.
(http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Community/kde3_eval)
#2: Karsten König (remur) (2009-08-15 15:46:46) (reply to #1)
Lubos asked on the -kde list which applications should be kept, why did
you not reply there?
There still is a KDE3 source, KDE:KDE3 in the obs, it just doesn't get
added to the community list because nobody works on it, it's up for
adoption, help welcome...
#3: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 11:20:49) (reply to
#2)
oops, must have forgotten to subscribe.
#4: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 11:58:32) (reply to
#2)
I thought dropping them from factory will not mind if these apps are kept
to be provided by a default KDE3 repo as
http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_11.2. However
I had to notice that such a repo does not exist yet.
#5: Stephan Binner (beineri) (2009-08-23 14:23:22)
> adding KDE3 to the community repository list would be an easy way to
do this and will point out the unsupported state of the repository.
I would rather argue the opposite, adding it would suggest that it's
somekind of supported.
Voting against! :-)
#6: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 21:52:56) (reply to
#5)
For the average user the 'support state' will not make a great difference
anyway. The fact that some KDE3 apps are poorly maintained does not
make any difference unless you have filed a bug for them. Even in times
of KDE3 being 'well supported' so many bug reports have not been
responded upon for years or not at all!
Allowing to add KDE3 at install time will also facilitate the change to
KDE4 since it is a common use case to run both - the KDE3 and the
respecitive KDE4 app. in order to manually transfer ones user
settings.
#7: Karsten König (remur) (2009-08-23 22:25:29) (reply to #6)
The user can add the KDE3 repository at install time or later and get
all the kde3 apps as long as they compile.
We don't want to make this look in any way supported, because it isn't
and nobody wants to do it, this is for advanced users, and we expect
them to be able to handle this themself.
#10: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-25 21:15:09) (reply to
#7)
The feature request should possibly have been about making the KDE3 repo
available at install time rather than adding it to the community list
(could not file this request by myself; unfortunately can not change
it.). Nonetheless I am not quite sure about the difference that would
make. When is a repo considered to be in the community list?
Selecting 'KDE3 - unsupported' in addition to KDE4 at install time
would be nice thing; I think (see Feature 306967, Comment 89;
https://features.opensuse.org/306967)
#11: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-25 21:18:44) (reply to
#10)
a nice thing.
#8: Stephan Binner (beineri) (2009-08-23 23:42:53) (reply to #6)
It does make a great difference for the user very well if the packages
don't even build. And if you look at the KDE:KDE3 repository eg kdepim3
does not.
#9: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-25 20:55:07) (reply to
#8)
I don`t understand what you mean. People add a binary repository in order
not having to build packages. Who would care about building a package
if it is available as binary?? - nobody (except a programmer applying
custom changes).
#12: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-08-26 02:05:31) (reply to #9)
Perhaps that the source has to be compiled to create a binary and that
currently doesn't happen because of some compilation errors?!
If you want KDE 3 then I suggest you go to
https://build.opensuse.org/project/monitor?project=KDE%3AKDE3 and fix
the packages that are broken for Factory as it has been said over and
over although none of the "OMG I need KDE 3 or the universe will
collapse" folks ever could be bothered to do so. (KDE 3 isn't supported
anymore, neither by upstream nor by Novell / openSUSE folks so it is up
to you (the people who desperately want it)).
Last but not least I would really appreciate it if you would finally
stop spamming openFATE or the wiki to advertise your personal pet
peeves. Thanks a lot in advance.
#13: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-28 15:09:53) (reply to
#12)
The question must be allowed. Why don`t the KDE3 maintainers simply check
out the latest working version of an unsupported program? We have
version control. That should not be a problem at all!
Destroying the compilability of KDE3 program to make users switch to
its KDE4 pendant is no good common practice!
This is NOT spamming. *** OpenFate is here to express users need not
the preferences of developers, as we have excessively had to hear them
for now! ***
#16: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-08-28 16:04:59) (reply to #13)
> Why don`t the KDE3 maintainers simply check out the latest working
version of an unsupported program?
Cause those programs depend on external libraries and once those get
changed the programs have to be adapted. If you think you can do it
better go ahead and fix the stuff. I'm sure all the other "We need KDE3
or I will stop using openSUSE" whiners will be happy to help you.
> Destroying the compilability of KDE3 program to make users switch to
its KDE4 pendant is no good common practice!
This makes no sense because no one is doing that. The compilation
failures arise because openSUSE 11.2 / Factory contains newer 3rd party
library versions than previous versions and some of them changed their
API so the programs that use them have to be addapted.
> This is NOT spamming. *** OpenFate is here to express users need not
the preferences of developers, as we have excessively had to hear them
for now! ***
No. I suggest you read the homepage for what it is and what it is not.
Regarding the spamming I would say that stuff that doesn't contribute
anything but some ongoing whining that stuff is different from what you
want it to be perfectly qualifies as such. See e.g. your comments in
the encrypted root feature or here #3, #4, #11 or the mere fact that
the last 3 comments here came from you within 15 minutes without adding
anything new / important / relevant.
#15: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-28 15:33:44) (reply to
#12)
Well, I can provide fixes for some of them (like the konsole-enlarge-fontsize-
bug), but not for all of them.
Besides this it is no good common practice to block bug reporting
facilities for more and more KDE3 programs.
It should still be possible to report bugs even if we currently do not
have a maintainer.
#17: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-08-28 16:18:06) (reply to #15)
It is possible to report KDE 3 bugs for openSUSE and if upstream KDE
closes KDE 3 bugs with WONTFIX you please take it to them. This is not
the place to moan about bugs.kde.org.
Last but not least be prepared that there will no maintainer magically
show up either until you and your "I want KDE 3" friends start to
maintain it. However, since reporting bugs is possible and those bugs
are publically accessible your comment makes no sense. Further OBS
provides the necessary tools to collaborate (
http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/Collaboration
(http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/Collaboration)
) so it just depends on you and your "I want KDE 3" friends and if you
are willing / able to do something more productive than demanding
someone else does what you want for free.
#20: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-29 13:48:16) (reply to
#17)
It was (at least temporarily) not possible to file bugs at all for certain
KDE3 programs. If I am still able to report a bug and someone else
closes it as WONTFIX, then everything is all right.
#14: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-28 15:28:15)
The truth is that KDE will lose a lot of users trying to force them out
of KDE3 into KDE4/Gnome.
Why not allow them to switch gradually, instead?
As KDE4 programs get better and better users will use more and more of
them.
The least requirement I would demand for OpenSuse 11.2 is an own KDE3 -
'package group', because most of the 'we are happy with KDE3' - folk
will be overcharged by having to install KDE3 core programs like kicker
and kdesktop by single package selections on their own.
#18: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-08-28 16:20:43) (reply to #14)
I "demand" that you start to get a clue before you "demand" anything
more ... (hint: you "demand" a software "pattern" which existed before
and wont stop to exist). Nevertheless that pattern wont help you until
you fix the packages so they build again ;P
#19: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-29 13:42:26) (reply to
#18)
I mean KDE3 being listed under 'software patterns' in YaST.
+ #21: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-29 14:02:48)
+ The reason why I am still using KDE3 is that KDE4 simply isn`t ready
+ yet. Just have a look at Konqueror. KDE4-konqueror can f.i. not display
+ this page while KDE3-konqueror can (... and this affects a lot of www-
+ pages, not only this one). In my mind some KDE4-apps are also lacking
+ crucial features like f.i. selecting the indentation mode in kwrite.
--
openSUSE Feature:
https://features.opensuse.org/306733
Feature #306733, revision 27
Title: Add KDE3 buildservice repository to community list
openSUSE-11.2: Rejected by Lubos Lunak (llunak)
reject date: 2009-08-28 16:09:20
reject reason: The KDE:KDE3 repository is unmaintained and does not
even build properly anymore. It is not acceptable to offer such a
repository in the community list.
Priority
Requester: Desirable
Requested by: Karsten König (remur)
Description:
As openSUSE 11.2 will drop KDE3 from main repositories we should make
adding the KDE3 repository as easy as possible, adding KDE3 to the
community repository list would be an easy way to do this and will
point out the unsupported state of the repository.
Use Case:
* Elmar wants to keep using KDE3 as KDE4 still isn't ready for him, he
doesn't mind using a seperate inofficial repository though.
This will make it easy for him to add the repository at install time
and select KDE3
* Karsten hangs around #opensuse-kde and after 11.2 release a lot of
people come and ask how to get KDE3 and start bitching about the
decission to drop it, he can now point out this easy way to add the
repository and help restore order in the channel
Discussion:
#1: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-14 22:00:29)
Vote for this if you are still interested in KDE3! The KDE team has
recently decided to drop 'poorly maintained' KDE3 apps from factory
(currently the only source for KDE3 at os11.2). Nonetheless these apps
may still be more elaborate and stable than their KDE4 counterparts.
For a list of KDE3 apps and such apps not ported to KDE4 (or at least
some of them) you may have a look at
http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Community/kde3_eval.
(http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Community/kde3_eval)
#2: Karsten König (remur) (2009-08-15 15:46:46) (reply to #1)
Lubos asked on the -kde list which applications should be kept, why did
you not reply there?
There still is a KDE3 source, KDE:KDE3 in the obs, it just doesn't get
added to the community list because nobody works on it, it's up for
adoption, help welcome...
#3: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 11:20:49) (reply to
#2)
oops, must have forgotten to subscribe.
#4: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 11:58:32) (reply to
#2)
I thought dropping them from factory will not mind if these apps are kept
to be provided by a default KDE3 repo as
http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_11.2. However
I had to notice that such a repo does not exist yet.
#5: Stephan Binner (beineri) (2009-08-23 14:23:22)
> adding KDE3 to the community repository list would be an easy way to
do this and will point out the unsupported state of the repository.
I would rather argue the opposite, adding it would suggest that it's
somekind of supported.
Voting against! :-)
#6: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 21:52:56) (reply to
#5)
For the average user the 'support state' will not make a great difference
anyway. The fact that some KDE3 apps are poorly maintained does not
make any difference unless you have filed a bug for them. Even in times
of KDE3 being 'well supported' so many bug reports have not been
responded upon for years or not at all!
Allowing to add KDE3 at install time will also facilitate the change to
KDE4 since it is a common use case to run both - the KDE3 and the
respecitive KDE4 app. in order to manually transfer ones user
settings.
#7: Karsten König (remur) (2009-08-23 22:25:29) (reply to #6)
The user can add the KDE3 repository at install time or later and get
all the kde3 apps as long as they compile.
We don't want to make this look in any way supported, because it isn't
and nobody wants to do it, this is for advanced users, and we expect
them to be able to handle this themself.
#10: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-25 21:15:09) (reply to
#7)
The feature request should possibly have been about making the KDE3 repo
available at install time rather than adding it to the community list
(could not file this request by myself; unfortunately can not change
it.). Nonetheless I am not quite sure about the difference that would
make. When is a repo considered to be in the community list?
Selecting 'KDE3 - unsupported' in addition to KDE4 at install time
would be nice thing; I think (see Feature 306967, Comment 89;
https://features.opensuse.org/306967)
#11: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-25 21:18:44) (reply to
#10)
a nice thing.
#8: Stephan Binner (beineri) (2009-08-23 23:42:53) (reply to #6)
It does make a great difference for the user very well if the packages
don't even build. And if you look at the KDE:KDE3 repository eg kdepim3
does not.
#9: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-25 20:55:07) (reply to
#8)
I don`t understand what you mean. People add a binary repository in order
not having to build packages. Who would care about building a package
if it is available as binary?? - nobody (except a programmer applying
custom changes).
#12: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-08-26 02:05:31) (reply to #9)
Perhaps that the source has to be compiled to create a binary and that
currently doesn't happen because of some compilation errors?!
If you want KDE 3 then I suggest you go to
https://build.opensuse.org/project/monitor?project=KDE%3AKDE3 and fix
the packages that are broken for Factory as it has been said over and
over although none of the "OMG I need KDE 3 or the universe will
collapse" folks ever could be bothered to do so. (KDE 3 isn't supported
anymore, neither by upstream nor by Novell / openSUSE folks so it is up
to you (the people who desperately want it)).
Last but not least I would really appreciate it if you would finally
stop spamming openFATE or the wiki to advertise your personal pet
peeves. Thanks a lot in advance.
#13: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-28 15:09:53) (reply to
#12)
The question must be allowed. Why don`t the KDE3 maintainers simply check
out the latest working version of an unsupported program? We have
version control. That should not be a problem at all!
Destroying the compilability of KDE3 program to make users switch to
its KDE4 pendant is no good common practice!
This is NOT spamming. *** OpenFate is here to express users need not
the preferences of developers, as we have excessively had to hear them
for now! ***
#16: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-08-28 16:04:59) (reply to #13)
> Why don`t the KDE3 maintainers simply check out the latest working
version of an unsupported program?
Cause those programs depend on external libraries and once those get
changed the programs have to be adapted. If you think you can do it
better go ahead and fix the stuff. I'm sure all the other "We need KDE3
or I will stop using openSUSE" whiners will be happy to help you.
> Destroying the compilability of KDE3 program to make users switch to
its KDE4 pendant is no good common practice!
This makes no sense because no one is doing that. The compilation
failures arise because openSUSE 11.2 / Factory contains newer 3rd party
library versions than previous versions and some of them changed their
API so the programs that use them have to be addapted.
> This is NOT spamming. *** OpenFate is here to express users need not
the preferences of developers, as we have excessively had to hear them
for now! ***
No. I suggest you read the homepage for what it is and what it is not.
Regarding the spamming I would say that stuff that doesn't contribute
anything but some ongoing whining that stuff is different from what you
want it to be perfectly qualifies as such. See e.g. your comments in
the encrypted root feature or here #3, #4, #11 or the mere fact that
the last 3 comments here came from you within 15 minutes without adding
anything new / important / relevant.
#15: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-28 15:33:44) (reply to
#12)
Well, I can provide fixes for some of them (like the konsole-enlarge-fontsize-
bug), but not for all of them.
Besides this it is no good common practice to block bug reporting
facilities for more and more KDE3 programs.
It should still be possible to report bugs even if we currently do not
have a maintainer.
#17: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-08-28 16:18:06) (reply to #15)
It is possible to report KDE 3 bugs for openSUSE and if upstream KDE
closes KDE 3 bugs with WONTFIX you please take it to them. This is not
the place to moan about bugs.kde.org.
Last but not least be prepared that there will no maintainer magically
show up either until you and your "I want KDE 3" friends start to
maintain it. However, since reporting bugs is possible and those bugs
are publically accessible your comment makes no sense. Further OBS
provides the necessary tools to collaborate (
http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/Collaboration
(http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/Collaboration)
) so it just depends on you and your "I want KDE 3" friends and if you
are willing / able to do something more productive than demanding
someone else does what you want for free.
#20: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-29 13:48:16) (reply to
#17)
It was (at least temporarily) not possible to file bugs at all for certain
KDE3 programs. If I am still able to report a bug and someone else
closes it as WONTFIX, then everything is all right.
#14: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-28 15:28:15)
The truth is that KDE will lose a lot of users trying to force them out
of KDE3 into KDE4/Gnome.
Why not allow them to switch gradually, instead?
As KDE4 programs get better and better users will use more and more of
them.
The least requirement I would demand for OpenSuse 11.2 is an own KDE3 -
'package group', because most of the 'we are happy with KDE3' - folk
will be overcharged by having to install KDE3 core programs like kicker
and kdesktop by single package selections on their own.
#18: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-08-28 16:20:43) (reply to #14)
I "demand" that you start to get a clue before you "demand" anything
more ... (hint: you "demand" a software "pattern" which existed before
and wont stop to exist). Nevertheless that pattern wont help you until
you fix the packages so they build again ;P
#19: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-29 13:42:26) (reply to
#18)
I mean KDE3 being listed under 'software patterns' in YaST.
+ #21: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-29 14:02:48)
+ The reason why I am still using KDE3 is that KDE4 simply isn`t ready
+ yet. Just have a look at Konqueror. KDE4-konqueror can f.i. not display
+ this page while KDE3-konqueror can (... and this affects a lot of www-
+ pages, not only this one). In my mind some KDE4-apps are also lacking
+ crucial features like f.i. selecting the indentation mode in kwrite.
--
openSUSE Feature:
https://features.opensuse.org/306733
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