Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-features (893 mails)

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[openFATE 306967] KDE default
  • From: fate_noreply@xxxxxxx
  • Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 20:46:58 +0200 (CEST)
  • Message-id: <feature-306967-138@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Feature changed by: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer)
Feature #306967, revision 138
Title: KDE default

openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation
Priority
Requester: Important

Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek)

Description:
I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE.
* It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between
KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of
them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has
more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the
default.
* Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something
that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for
openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution. 
* This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice
distribution to develop on.
* This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user
community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad
because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution. 
openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced
users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default.
What do you think?

Discussion:
#1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00)
+1
Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE
distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects
can earn great benefits.

#2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38)
+1

#3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50)
yeah, it's time again for kde as default de!

#4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56)
KDE for teh win! :)

#5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23)
My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only
kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea
of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about
openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a
flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most
easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even
if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of
using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me.

#6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36)
Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important
would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE
distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great
developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE
community.
I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there
too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive
these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu?
I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =)
Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I
fully agree here.

#7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04)
+1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move
to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome.

#8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34)
+1 !!!

#9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38)
+1!!

#10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00)
+1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known
for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE.

#11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19)
+1

#12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27)
While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a
particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It
just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users.
The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of
their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of
politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and
go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually
compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a
nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections.

#13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56)
I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop!
+1!

#14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16)
+1 
but there is already the possibilty to integrate this.
In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic
Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the
automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice
between GNOME and KDE4 .

#15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40)
just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last
openSUSE user survey at
http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf
question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE
68,3%
question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux?
Yes 6,1%
So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have
that many newbies.


#25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15)
Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know,
they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users.
So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a
choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's
increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower
numbers.
I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is
"chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell-
internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs
26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that
clear historically as well.

#28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15)
Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary)
and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially
Germany) in my Experience. 
Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE)


#16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53)
+1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost
openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some
distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support.
The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better
way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better
KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with
the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier
for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on
that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental
versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE
for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a
kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE.

#17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24)
-1
Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties
with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop
Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is
completely down to the user (as it should be).
I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE
community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the
community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE.
This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of
time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands
basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you
like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are
doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and
dictatorial  choice.

#27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17)
openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other
options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE
becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and
KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put
Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy
with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this
suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE.

#18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29)
+1
The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch
over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for
me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of
the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase
support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit
68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became
the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from
Kubuntu and give it a shot.

#23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18)
You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection,
you have to explicitely select what you want.

#19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25)
Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making
KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm
confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose
KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made
for them.

#20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to
#19)
It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us
* Focus
* Users
* Developers
(quoting the original request)

#21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20)
Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for
them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and
pretty much default everything. This is the only page during
installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's
not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does
actually any other distribution do that?

#22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33)
Great +1 KDE by Default!!!

#24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24)
Great +1 KDE rocks !!

#26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03)
I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one
day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is
proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install
DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe
another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact
it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and
a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with
Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a
desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4
and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if
they don't want KDE and can pick something else.

#29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22)
I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese:
http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html

#30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21)
+1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be
proud of it and put it as default !!!

#31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06)
+0.5
I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use
KDE by default, why not Gnome?
Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should
sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a
community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent
experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not
just in a particular way to Opensuse.


#32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31)
Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because
ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even
quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so
why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am
no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting
from me

#33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06)
I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I
personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop
environment with respect to another in the "default" installation.
Let's address the points suggested by the proposer.
1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE.
I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do
selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about
GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has
anyway to try both to choose what he prefers.
2) Unique Selling Point
How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default?
KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do
with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the
second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be
the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and
the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the
default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point.
You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based
distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without
hiding GNOME.
3) This could attract more KDE developers
How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection
between GNOME and KDE?
4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user
community
The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in
particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a
default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates
openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE
implementation.
I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about
"focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is
something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means
subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second
class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a
popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the
user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4.
Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me,
and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME
team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting
new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the
difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always.

#50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to
#33)
I agree with you entirely.
Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states
should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens.
kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE
not to take sides.
1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The
sooner beginners start choosing, the better.
2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the
box.
3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for
all.
4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase
popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other
desktops.


#34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48)
"It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE
and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them.
So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more
KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default."
The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead
providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level
of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already
(no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical.
"Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide
something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial
for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution."
And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small
distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install
through a few apt commands.
"This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice
distribution to develop on."
This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu
already covering that ground?
"This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user
community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad
because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution."
I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more
flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now.


#35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24)
If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect
something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the
available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a
preselected default desktop.
To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does
a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux
newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question
less.  See also Chris' comment #12.
From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is
more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant.
Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions?
Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican?
Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the
language/ region the user has provided?
Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint
which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question
raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't
care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content
displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to
display multi media content.
Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count
+2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a
smart and appropriate way.

#36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42)
"I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release"
You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think
the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important
to people.
"I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do
selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about
GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has
anyway to try both to choose what he prefers."
If we want users to try both, we should install both by
default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick.
And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just
the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official
canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and
community-supported distribution.
"What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique
selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best
integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE
with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the
difference claimed in this point."
You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I
don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE
is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I
think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is
counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced
distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is
fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution
that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility
under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible
distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for
the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already
and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to
an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market.
Just giving more information won't change that.
It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an
ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to
get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple,
concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking
a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to
the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now.

#52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to
#36)
It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken
more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make
any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that
KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it
from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default
should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision
in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would
throw years of work out of the window.
OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still
identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the
alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable,
solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing
on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on
the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact
openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end
of the day.
Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio
button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the
choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's?
Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal?

#37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07)
kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde.
Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by
the dvd.
I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde
theme. This could be the default.
However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but
shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5,
gnome, xfce, server, minimal).
jdd


#38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51)
Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be
removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like
Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will
probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a
selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default,
which from my POV should be KDE.
Bob

#39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54)
You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an
issue.

#40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09)
Choice is king.
I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you
want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I
have a choice.
So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me,
which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user
fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the
default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No
secrets, no surprises, maximum choice.
But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that
too is fine for me.
pvl

#41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21)
+1
I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2
with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to
the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken
a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and
mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as
C#-Gtk, or even more.
So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and
the choise can't be other than KDE!!

#42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09)
-1
There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There
is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others.

#43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53)
+1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative.

#44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15)
+1

#45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50)
+1
It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's
about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's
why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but
that is hardly a good starting point for newbies.
Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem,
the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes
it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of
those around.
I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE
selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced
installation in which the user can select the DE.

#46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45)
+1

#47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05)
+1

#48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26)
yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me.

#49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30)
OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system
works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some
sneaky AJAX buttons appear.

#53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to
#49)
+1

#51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47)
+1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro.

#54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03)
-1
I state myself as a KDE-fan but
possibility to make a choice == freedom

a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of
KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in
mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist.
simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or
two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help
user  chose.

#55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02)
- 1
Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with
(surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my
question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two
DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative
for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of
Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the
mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss
many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push
users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet.

#56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03)
[x] kde
[_] Gnome
[_] Other

#57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11)
KDE should be the default.
 
GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an
unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and
then GNOME.
I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but
traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines)
skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already
considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the
yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies
even if you did not select anything new.

#58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13)
-1
GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get
similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora.

#59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21)
Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions.
"Choice is King"
Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there
should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be
dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not
necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are
perfectly good defaults.
This political thing started something crazy - why are we being
dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something
else)". WTF?
Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that
want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes
with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to
set something.
Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that
KDE is the obvious choice.
Paul.
+1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default.
 

#60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50)
+1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much
influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When
it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry
of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored.
Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the
direction or if Novell still holds the trump card.

#61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22)
+1 - Go KDE! Go! :D
Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think
its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible.

#62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42)
-1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our
contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only
net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers.
Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very
little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise
common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push
from harming our distro.
if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do
it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you).
People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent
their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their
time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we
have here.

#63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to
#62)
Well said, friend.

#65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63)
Well said
Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition.

#70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62)
Well put Federio.

#64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25)
-1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME
!!!

#66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40)
I agree with Federico (#62).
 
Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with
our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for
openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real
gains for the "winner".
 
I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled
users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the
cost of seeing our KDE support suffer.
 
Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I
don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to
read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a
decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board
will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up
as a serious proposal.

#67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48)
I vote for no bias.
 
I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to
embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project,
wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which
embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of
expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural
backgrounds." (Emphasis mine)
 
Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not
support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these
principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is
nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and
community as a whole.
 
We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in
having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative --
valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated.
 
[1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples
[2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek

#68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02)
Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of
alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last:
#67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of
a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering
"KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching
a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or
even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of
Linux?

#69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26)
-1 please.

#71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27)
-1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment
of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally.

#72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51)
+1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative.

#73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01)
-1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out
there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions
Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for
example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee,
Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports
both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both
of them.

#74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15)
-1
As a Gnome user, I vote against.
openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the
major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that
the only thing that matters.
If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this
project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't
want of it.
I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality
distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use.
So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever
fanboys.

+ #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11)
+ I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and
+ KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole
+ discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE
+ better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and
+ users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic.



--
openSUSE Feature:
https://features.opensuse.org/306967

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