Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-features (368 mails)
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[openFATE 305888] Disable PulseAudio by default
- From: fate_noreply@xxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 23:31:53 +0200 (CEST)
- Message-id: <feature-305888-33@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Feature changed by: René Krell (renekrell)
Feature #305888, revision 33
Title: Disable PulseAudio by default
openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed
Priority
Requester: Mandatory
Requested by: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop)
Description:
PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of
problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant
annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums.
As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it
by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2.
This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree
with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are
enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA
disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box
for many more users, just comment here.
Relations:
- Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511)
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511
Discussion:
#1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19)
+1
#2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25)
You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list
[1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE.
1|
https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.html
#3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58)
+1
#4: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-22 14:23:28)
On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep
it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing
something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those
we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1.
Bye, A.
#5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39)
+1 for me
#6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03)
+1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2)
#7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08)
Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no
user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug.
Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to
bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community.
Thanks.
#8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01)
I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be
regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on.
Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting.
#9: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:22:54)
In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla
is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes
for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug
report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in
a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide
without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list.
As a consequence I reopen it.
Regards, A.
#10: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:26:33)
@Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE
and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-)
#11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54)
Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to
join IRC just for this purpose.)
The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide
range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make
sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug
entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place
where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course,
it will result in votes just by haters.
Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect.
If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is
no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not
about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME).
So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional
+1/-1 votes.
#12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)
> So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional
+1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it.
> It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look.
Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is
exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about
messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is,
and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it
by default.
#13: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 10:07:28)
Hi Takashi,
the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs
and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this
request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes.
I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA
on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a
sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means,
but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a
quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features.
I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove
PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't
meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be
disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it
again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because
for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it.
Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but
the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to
listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the
distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides
"the latest stack" for those who want/need it.
The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what
reported):
- PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other
players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to
work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio
system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some
player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I
know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems
too).
Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it
available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I
already spread it on IRC when I opened the request.
P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is
no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome.
After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :-
)
Regards, Alberto
#14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18)
+1 at least, under kde is unuseful.
#15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37)
OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the
decision is made.
My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't.
But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too.
#16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09)
no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2
#17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47)
This is discussion about this enhancement request:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html
#18: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 13:21:34)
FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their
opinion and we can collect more feedback:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html
A.
#19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36)
Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be
taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep
pulseaudio?
IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an
enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on
opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-)
#20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13)
for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it..
so +1
#21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22)
Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on
comment #2?
https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.html
Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here.
"Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes
scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really
really a lot."
"Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so."
"1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set
HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU.
Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*.
2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f
entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c
and src/modules/alsa-source.c."
So why do our kernel suck so bad?
#22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26)
+1
#23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50)
Takashi,
If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all
kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to
get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I
get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which
most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio".
#24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24)
+1, for very large values of 1 ;-)
#25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48)
I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the
standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with
openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz
celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I
needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting
off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages.
So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard.
#26: Marcus Grenängen (snews) (2009-03-04 22:45:43)
+1 here to.
#27: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) (2009-03-07 21:53:52)
Not a default removal, but have a choice in installation Pulse Audio
Yes or No would be wonderful. This would very grow up OpenSUSE
reputation.
#28: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 18:46:44) (reply to #27)
Problem is how do I know what to answer. If there would be clear mark
"EXPERIMENTAL" like in kernel configuration, I would not touch it for
stable installation, and I will include it in test one, but there is no
sign that feature (audio server) has a problem, as indicated in
https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.html
#29: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 19:10:10)
If Lennart is right then openSUSE kernel configuration is not
compatible with PulseAudio: grep HZ /boot/config-2.6.27.19-3.2-pae
CONFIG_NO_HZ=y
# CONFIG_HZ_100 is not set
CONFIG_HZ_250=y
# CONFIG_HZ_300 is not set
# CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set
CONFIG_HZ=250 <<<<< It is asked for 1000
#30: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-16 18:01:15) (reply to #29)
Well you need to use -rt, tho.
#31: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-30 20:46:54) (reply to #30)
I agree, but then we leave out all that have no idea how to replace
kernel.
I know it is simple install -rt, but it is so, if one knows:
1) what is kernel
2) that there is -rt kernel
3) that it is simple procedure: visit to YaST Software Management |
search |install
#32: Juergen Weigert (jnweiger) (2009-04-24 13:08:43)
If pulesaudio is incompatible with current kernel settings, it should
disable itself and say so prominently.
Just sitting there and doing nothing punishes the wrong party.
The fact that alsa just works raises some doubt wrt comment#21
#36: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 18:47:23) (reply to #32)
Things come and go, software, interfaces, also configurations.
What is so annoying about changing the latency time? Couldn't there be
a desktop and a server kernel? I like the PulseAudio idea. If
PulseAudio itself is not ready, it should not be included, or disabled
by default, ok. But it's about a new distribution, with a new kernel,
new compiler etc. Is it really necessary to conservatively keep a
kernel setting?
I would expect this discussion more constructive. Otherwise we would
still have OSS and Kernel 2.0.
Instead of discussing here what did and what did not work in previous
distributions there should be discussed whether it can work in 11.2.
Not more and not less.
#33: Heidi Lahtinen (chrysantine) (2009-05-14 11:18:47)
Another useless glue on top of more glue.
Disable by default or get rid of it completely. +1
#34: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 16:09:26)
Please integrate PulseAudio, but integrate it right, even for the
default kernel. That's my wish.
I like the PulseAudio concept and if you look around there is many work
done and in progress. The most annoying aspect is the integration with
KDE4 and Phonon for most users, from what I have seen. It's difficult
to handle, and even "The Perfect PulseAudio Setup" does not work
completely for all applications with different sound interfaces that
might be used - ALSA, Arts, Xine, ... Even more that hidden "Enable
PulseAudio" checkbox somewhere in the depths of YaST.
There should be a checklist of interfaces and applications that might
be potentially used and somewhere really intensively tested whether
they all work together over PulseAudio. And of course, all kernels
should be configured by default in the right manner, otherwise you can
really forget about PulseAudio. There are many bug reports and articles
in internet which point out the problems particularly, but the puzzle
hasn't been finished for OpenSUSE to this time.
#37: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-06-04 18:54:36) (reply to #34)
From BZ:
I cannot agree in that conservative point with you. In this terms, you
mean that Arts and OSS should be supported for a lifetime? And who does
still usekernel 2.0? Things are going forward, and things come (if they
er good) and go(if they er no longer needed). The same is with
PulseAudio, it is new, andmaybe it has issues at this time. But it has
good a nice concept and is lesscomplex than ALSA.
You did not get the point. OSS worked and the switch to ALSA was made
when it was *reasonably* ready. This reason seems currently absent from
PA setups. If PA works, fine, but *today* it's not there. Supporting
arts - I doubt it, it died on its own when KDE moved away from it.
Supporting OSS - yes, even if in the form of CUSE, because there are so
many programs that depend on it.
#38: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:08:37) (reply to #37)
Well, OpenSUSE will be released somewhen in november, and there is
PulseAudio 0.9.15 out. And there is the kernel configuration discussion
about the latency parameters, there's 2.6.30 used in 11.2 at the
moment. I would like to have a sound system with PA in 11.2, of course,
a working one.
Doesn't anyone has a connection to the PulseAudio developers and point
out the problems?
Nothing is perfect, but what are the blocker issues that make you say
"it's not ready" for OpenSUSE 11.2? Is all what you say still valid for
the factory, is it still stuttering and dropping out, how could this be
solved and why isn't it solved in that way? Why can't be changed the
kernel latency parameters, which are the risks? What is the experience
from other distributors than OpenSUSE? I would like to see answers to
that questions. From what I see the arguments get lost here between the
"+1/-1" comments. Is it so far from being good enough to play in the
next distro? For not discussing influenced by the frustration with it
of old versions and distributions...
These questions should be asked with each new version of kernel,
PulseAudio and depending components until the feature freeze deadline
instead of kicking it aboard, shouldn't it?
#35: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-06-04 18:35:51)
+1
+ #39: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:31:16)
+ Just one another point in this "no-sayer" discussion - PulseAudio
+ routing of streams dynamically between devices on top of ALSA and its
+ features are a really great idea and it will be a step forward. I don't
+ know any good alternative to it reaching this. And it's actually quiet
+ independend atlthough used preferably in Gnome. There is no measurable
+ resource overhead from what I have tried myself and read in the
+ discussions (for instance it reduces the number of ALSA interrupts).
+ Applications who use It would be easier to configure, devices would be
+ chosen on one place....
+ But this project won't really suceed without the support of the
+ distributions and the community. I agree, it was introduced a way too
+ quick and over estimated, but it's worth to get more chances, in my
+ opinion. And there is still half a year until 11.2.
--
openSUSE Feature:
https://features.opensuse.org/305888
Feature #305888, revision 33
Title: Disable PulseAudio by default
openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed
Priority
Requester: Mandatory
Requested by: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop)
Description:
PulseAudio has been one of the major sources of complaints and of
problems for both the 11.0 and 11.1 release, with significant
annoyances for openSUSE users, as reported on IRC and on local forums.
As a consequence it is worth to consider the possibility to disable it
by default on freshly installed systems for openSUSE 11.2.
This enhancement request aims to collect the votes of those who agree
with this. According to a discussion in IRC with coolo, if there are
enough requests, this might be done. So, please, if you want to see PA
disabled by default, in favour of a working audio system out of the box
for many more users, just comment here.
Relations:
- Disable PulseAudio by default (novell/bugzilla/id: 478511)
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478511
Discussion:
#1: Criss Peress (pieris) (2009-02-22 12:52:19)
+1
#2: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) (2009-02-22 13:31:25)
You should have a look at what Lennart says on pulseaudio-discuss list
[1], 'cause this might be important for openSUSE.
1|
https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.html
#3: Luigi Bettin (gigi888) (2009-02-22 13:55:58)
+1
#4: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-22 14:23:28)
On comment #2: that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please keep
it on topic! Fedora, cited in the link as the distribution doing
something in the suggested direction, has similar complaints to those
we had for openSUSE 11.0 and 11.1.
Bye, A.
#5: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-02-22 16:57:39)
+1 for me
#6: andrea martin (il_cjargnel) (2009-02-22 23:54:03)
+1 for me (no pulse audio of default in 11.2)
#7: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 01:07:08)
Guys, the bugzilla is no place for voting or discussions, and it's no
user forum. It's the place to report a bug and fix the bug.
Please vote/discuss on ML at first. Then report back the result to
bugzilla as the consensus of the whole community.
Thanks.
#8: Sven Burmeister (rabauke) (2009-02-23 04:28:01)
I do not see any discussion here. Enabling pa by default can be
regarded as a bug and not doing so as an enhancement people vote on.
Bugzilla is about bugs/enhancements (not features) and voting.
#9: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:22:54)
In answer to comment #7: This is an enhancement request, and bugzilla
is exactly the place where this kind of discussion, to collect votes
for it. Further discussion happened in the IRC anyway, and this bug
report was opened as a consequence of it to collect user's feedback in
a clean and organized manner, so that the decisionmaker can decide
without reading an endless discussion in a mailing-list.
As a consequence I reopen it.
Regards, A.
#10: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 07:26:33)
@Takashi Iwai: You might want to take part to the IRC life of openSUSE
and discuss with us. Any suggestion/help is welcome! :-)
#11: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 07:43:54)
Could you give the exact voting result here? (And, no I'm not going to
join IRC just for this purpose.)
The vote must be done in an open way, and needs to take from a wide
range of voters (users) without bias. Voting in bugzilla doesn't make
sense for this kind of issue because the bugzilla (a specific bug
entry) isn't the place where every user takes a look. It's the place
where the people with the same problems take a look. Thus, of course,
it will result in votes just by haters.
Also, the endless discussion in ML is the result you have to respect.
If there is no clear sign in the discussions in ML, it means there is
no clear way to go, too. The rest is the political decision, and not
about technical ones (remember KDE vs GNOME).
So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional
+1/-1 votes.
#12: Michael Skiba (mirrakor) (2009-02-23 10:03:31)
> So, please give more concrete technical issues rather than emotional
+1/-1 votes. There's nothing emotional about it.
> It's the place where the people with the same problems take a look.
Thus, of course, it will result in votes just by haters. Which is
exactly the point - this isn't an open "opinion poll" it's about
messuring how big the disturbances/problems (->bug) with PA really is,
and if it affects enough people it's worth thinking about disabling it
by default.
#13: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 10:07:28)
Hi Takashi,
the result of the voting, done with the usual procedure to vote bugs
and requests, can be read at the top of the page. Currently this
request has 27 votes. Each user can give a maximum of five votes.
I probably wasn't clear in the initial post. We discussed to disable PA
on IRC, and coolo suggested that is can be done if there is a
sufficient number of requests. I don't know what "sufficient" means,
but I thought it would have been easier to collect the votes in a
quantitative manner here, using bugzilla features.
I think it is important to notice that I'm not asking to remove
PulseAudio, but to simply disable it by default, so that users don't
meet the problems it is causing to them. PulseAudio can be already be
disabled with one click in YaST, and the same can done to enable it
again. My idea is that we should not activate it by default, because
for 11.0 and 11.1 releases we had quite a lot of complaints due to it.
Users who want it will be able to enable it with a simple click, but
the new unexperienced user won't have to fight to make it work to
listen to his music, which will result in a better image of the
distribution that "works out of the box" and at the same time provides
"the latest stack" for those who want/need it.
The concrete technical issues are the following (I sum up what
reported):
- PA audio glitches often. - It gives troubles with Flash and other
players, which capture the server, making other applications unable to
work correctly. - It crashes, leaving you without controls on the audio
system (Connection refused). - It doesn't work properly with some
player and sound tool (someone reported issues with audacity, skype (I
know it's skype problem but people wants to use it) gives problems
too).
Anyway, if you prefer, we can post the link on the ML to make it
available to a wider public. I simply fear it will become noisy. I
already spread it on IRC when I opened the request.
P.S. My invitation on IRC was friendly. If you don't like it, there is
no problem. But I'm serious when I say that suggestions are welcome.
After all we are here to improve things, and not to fight between us :-
)
Regards, Alberto
#14: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-02-23 11:47:18)
+1 at least, under kde is unuseful.
#15: Takashi Iwai (tiwai) (2009-02-23 12:11:37)
OK, then I reassign this bug to coolo. Please reassign back after the
decision is made.
My position is neutral about this. I myself don't use PA, and I won't.
But I do understand that some (other) people want PA as default, too.
#16: alberto rossi (al9000) (2009-02-23 12:13:09)
no to pulseaudio by default in opensuse 11.2
#17: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-02-23 13:17:47)
This is discussion about this enhancement request:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html
#18: Alberto Passalacqua (albertop) (2009-02-23 13:21:34)
FYI, opened a discussion here so the interested people can say their
opinion and we can collect more feedback:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-02/msg00208.html
A.
#19: Vincent Untz (vuntz) (2009-02-23 14:47:36)
Stupid question, if people think that the votes on this bug can be
taken into account for the decision: how can people vote to keep
pulseaudio?
IMHO, bugzilla is not the right place for this -- this is not an
enhancement request, this is a technical decision. Starting a thread on
opensuse-factory was a good thing, though :-)
#20: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-02-23 19:59:13)
for me alsa worked perfectly, so why change it..
so +1
#21: Jigish Gohil (cyberorg) (2009-02-23 22:45:22)
Can we get kernel people look into the points raised in link posted on
comment #2?
https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.html
Quoting relevant parts from that post for everyone's benefit here.
"Apparently OpenSUSE ships a kernel (2.6.27.7-9-pae) that causes
scheduling latencies of > 210ms. That is a lot. That is really really
really a lot."
"Fedora-kernels that easily give latencies of 5ms or so."
"1) For fucks sakes: get your bloody kernels fixed. Enable preempt, set
HZ to 1000. Get rid of low-quality drivers that block the CPU.
Latencies of 210ms is *REALLY NOT NECESSARY*.
2) If you want to stick with your crap kernel, then either disable g-f
entirely or adjust the #defines at the top of src/modules/alsa-sink.c
and src/modules/alsa-source.c."
So why do our kernel suck so bad?
#22: Antonio Cervone (capitalaslash) (2009-02-24 11:05:26)
+1
#23: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-02-27 16:40:50)
Takashi,
If you were in the #suse irc room you would see that pulse causes all
kinds of headaches and is probably one of the most requested issue to
get help with. Right after "How do I install video drivers?", "Help, I
get no sound / I have hiccups / I have huge audio lags / etc" which
most of the time is cured with the answer "uninstall pulseaudio".
#24: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-01 16:31:24)
+1, for very large values of 1 ;-)
#25: William Simon Lewis (williamsimonlewis) (2009-03-04 21:40:48)
I think it is great that openSUSE now have a realtime kernel in the
standard repos. I have been using the trace kernel supplied with
openSUSE 11.1 x85-64 / KDE 4.1.3 on a HP550 notebook (single core 2GHz
celeron) and work with 5ms latency for long periods without x-runs. I
needed to remove pulseaudio first - this was interrupting or cutting
off the sound output and throwing out konflict messages.
So please, please, please do not install pulseaudio as standard.
#26: Marcus Grenängen (snews) (2009-03-04 22:45:43)
+1 here to.
#27: Michal Smrž (ilfirin) (2009-03-07 21:53:52)
Not a default removal, but have a choice in installation Pulse Audio
Yes or No would be wonderful. This would very grow up OpenSUSE
reputation.
#28: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 18:46:44) (reply to #27)
Problem is how do I know what to answer. If there would be clear mark
"EXPERIMENTAL" like in kernel configuration, I would not touch it for
stable installation, and I will include it in test one, but there is no
sign that feature (audio server) has a problem, as indicated in
https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-February/003150.html
#29: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-12 19:10:10)
If Lennart is right then openSUSE kernel configuration is not
compatible with PulseAudio: grep HZ /boot/config-2.6.27.19-3.2-pae
CONFIG_NO_HZ=y
# CONFIG_HZ_100 is not set
CONFIG_HZ_250=y
# CONFIG_HZ_300 is not set
# CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set
CONFIG_HZ=250 <<<<< It is asked for 1000
#30: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-03-16 18:01:15) (reply to #29)
Well you need to use -rt, tho.
#31: Rajko Matovic (rajko_m) (2009-03-30 20:46:54) (reply to #30)
I agree, but then we leave out all that have no idea how to replace
kernel.
I know it is simple install -rt, but it is so, if one knows:
1) what is kernel
2) that there is -rt kernel
3) that it is simple procedure: visit to YaST Software Management |
search |install
#32: Juergen Weigert (jnweiger) (2009-04-24 13:08:43)
If pulesaudio is incompatible with current kernel settings, it should
disable itself and say so prominently.
Just sitting there and doing nothing punishes the wrong party.
The fact that alsa just works raises some doubt wrt comment#21
#36: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 18:47:23) (reply to #32)
Things come and go, software, interfaces, also configurations.
What is so annoying about changing the latency time? Couldn't there be
a desktop and a server kernel? I like the PulseAudio idea. If
PulseAudio itself is not ready, it should not be included, or disabled
by default, ok. But it's about a new distribution, with a new kernel,
new compiler etc. Is it really necessary to conservatively keep a
kernel setting?
I would expect this discussion more constructive. Otherwise we would
still have OSS and Kernel 2.0.
Instead of discussing here what did and what did not work in previous
distributions there should be discussed whether it can work in 11.2.
Not more and not less.
#33: Heidi Lahtinen (chrysantine) (2009-05-14 11:18:47)
Another useless glue on top of more glue.
Disable by default or get rid of it completely. +1
#34: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 16:09:26)
Please integrate PulseAudio, but integrate it right, even for the
default kernel. That's my wish.
I like the PulseAudio concept and if you look around there is many work
done and in progress. The most annoying aspect is the integration with
KDE4 and Phonon for most users, from what I have seen. It's difficult
to handle, and even "The Perfect PulseAudio Setup" does not work
completely for all applications with different sound interfaces that
might be used - ALSA, Arts, Xine, ... Even more that hidden "Enable
PulseAudio" checkbox somewhere in the depths of YaST.
There should be a checklist of interfaces and applications that might
be potentially used and somewhere really intensively tested whether
they all work together over PulseAudio. And of course, all kernels
should be configured by default in the right manner, otherwise you can
really forget about PulseAudio. There are many bug reports and articles
in internet which point out the problems particularly, but the puzzle
hasn't been finished for OpenSUSE to this time.
#37: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-06-04 18:54:36) (reply to #34)
From BZ:
I cannot agree in that conservative point with you. In this terms, you
mean that Arts and OSS should be supported for a lifetime? And who does
still usekernel 2.0? Things are going forward, and things come (if they
er good) and go(if they er no longer needed). The same is with
PulseAudio, it is new, andmaybe it has issues at this time. But it has
good a nice concept and is lesscomplex than ALSA.
You did not get the point. OSS worked and the switch to ALSA was made
when it was *reasonably* ready. This reason seems currently absent from
PA setups. If PA works, fine, but *today* it's not there. Supporting
arts - I doubt it, it died on its own when KDE moved away from it.
Supporting OSS - yes, even if in the form of CUSE, because there are so
many programs that depend on it.
#38: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:08:37) (reply to #37)
Well, OpenSUSE will be released somewhen in november, and there is
PulseAudio 0.9.15 out. And there is the kernel configuration discussion
about the latency parameters, there's 2.6.30 used in 11.2 at the
moment. I would like to have a sound system with PA in 11.2, of course,
a working one.
Doesn't anyone has a connection to the PulseAudio developers and point
out the problems?
Nothing is perfect, but what are the blocker issues that make you say
"it's not ready" for OpenSUSE 11.2? Is all what you say still valid for
the factory, is it still stuttering and dropping out, how could this be
solved and why isn't it solved in that way? Why can't be changed the
kernel latency parameters, which are the risks? What is the experience
from other distributors than OpenSUSE? I would like to see answers to
that questions. From what I see the arguments get lost here between the
"+1/-1" comments. Is it so far from being good enough to play in the
next distro? For not discussing influenced by the frustration with it
of old versions and distributions...
These questions should be asked with each new version of kernel,
PulseAudio and depending components until the feature freeze deadline
instead of kicking it aboard, shouldn't it?
#35: Andras Barna (sartek) (2009-06-04 18:35:51)
+1
+ #39: René Krell (renekrell) (2009-06-04 23:31:16)
+ Just one another point in this "no-sayer" discussion - PulseAudio
+ routing of streams dynamically between devices on top of ALSA and its
+ features are a really great idea and it will be a step forward. I don't
+ know any good alternative to it reaching this. And it's actually quiet
+ independend atlthough used preferably in Gnome. There is no measurable
+ resource overhead from what I have tried myself and read in the
+ discussions (for instance it reduces the number of ALSA interrupts).
+ Applications who use It would be easier to configure, devices would be
+ chosen on one place....
+ But this project won't really suceed without the support of the
+ distributions and the community. I agree, it was introduced a way too
+ quick and over estimated, but it's worth to get more chances, in my
+ opinion. And there is still half a year until 11.2.
--
openSUSE Feature:
https://features.opensuse.org/305888
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