Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-factory (1264 mails)

[Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@xxxxxxxxx>]

Guys,

If you move the atheism vs primordial creator discussion to
opensuse-offtopic I'll join in.

But this is not the place for it.

Greg

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 1:44 PM, phanisvara das <listmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 21:07:58 +0530, Alin Marin Elena <alinm.elena@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> > in a general sense all of us are believers. all system of thoughts are
> > based on believing something... or if you want to be scientific,assuming
> > some hypothesis. This is the place where the believers start
> > to split... in  what I like to think dogmatic and critical thinkers.
> >
> > the science which is the example you used... indeed starts with the
> > statement there is X... and then puts all the machinery of critical
> > thinking to establish some value of true or false to that statement...
> > if true... the machinery continues and nice consequences areobtained...
> > making your  life better. if false a new statement is
> > generated and the critical thinking process continues...
> >
> > the problem with the statement there is a god... or if you want in
> > a more philosophical manner, there is a primordial cause... is that
> > once one applies the critical thinking process the outcome is the
> > there is a god or there is not god... cannot be proved...
>
>
> yes, it's beyond our ability to prove, or even to understand. people xxx
> years ago couldn't have conceived of electricity, or whatever. there are
> things we can't wrap our mind around, which aren't subject to the scientific
> process we understand; doesn't mean they can't exist.
>
>
> > The critical thinker... will say... I cannot use something I cannot
> > prove to get a system of thoughts... the dogmatic believer will say
> > there is a god... and then build his system of thoughts... with
> > the consequences that we see today... probably Nietzsche put it the best
> > with his God is dead.
>
>
> since it can't be proven either way with the means at our disposal, saying
> "yes, there's god," or "no, there isn't one" are equally supported by
> scientific evidence. it _is_ a question of belief, either way. now there's
> plenty of quotes from scientists like altbert einstein and god knows how
> many others [pun intended], and equally or more quotes of others saying the
> opposite. confirms the 'scientific' result: is a matter of faith (and not
> only idiots believe).
>
> unfortunately there are idiots in all of these camps, and they'll as happily
> misuse religious sentiments (belief based on faith only, without critical
> thinking) as they misuse results of scientific research that weren't really
> meant for bad purposes.
>
>
> > Of course you will find well versed believers how will tell you... that
> > science cannot give you a moral system... law of gravitation will not tell
> > you what is good to eat... to rich heaven. indeed moral systems
> > come from ethics... And ethics is fully under the governance of critical
> > thinking... and absurd outcomes are discarded..
>
>
> in my opinion that should be applied to any moral code, if it's based on
> religious traditions or not. we, humans, are apt to make mistakes and worse:
> use anything to our own advantage. there has to be critical thinking.
>
>
> > On the other hand certain system of thought, of religious inspiration will
> > not change their moral rules even when the absurdity is shown via
> > the critical thinking process and they will dismiss the outcome on the
> > base of work of devil, devils, negative forces. In past times and even
> > nowadays religion equates ethics in certain spaces, as source of
> > moral... and that is in my humble opinion a sorry state.
>
>
> i agree. i don't see it as "the work of religion," but as the work of bad or
> selfish people. if they use religion or something else depends on what's
> available. do you really think they fought those crusades because they
> believed in god, or was it for the plunder and whatever political gains they
> wanted to achieve? are the polititians of a certain super-power fighting the
> "axis of evil" only for moral reasons?
>
>
> > Now you may come with the argument that many people cannot be wrong,
> > and there are plenty being religious around.
>
>
> ahem, i didn't make this argument and don't support it.
>
>
> > I will invite them, then to see if a
> > statement like that stands the critical thinking process.
> > Who were the wrongs or the rights? The Christian who massacred Muslims or
> > the Muslims who massacred the Christians. these are just simple facts
> > that happened in the last 1000 years in Europe and Middle East. The
> > Hindus who hacked to pieces Muslims or the Muslims who hacked to pieces
> > Hindus...  that was sometime in the last 100 years on the Indian
> > subcontinent.. and all of them started simple by the fact that there is
> > a god (in its various flavours) was assumed true by many.
>
>
> in my opinion, that was not the reason for any of these massacres. it's that
> people in general don't think very much, don't like to ask themselves and
> others uncomfortable questions. talented people w/o scruples can misuse
> that, and if there's no "religion" around, they'll use something else. it's
> not that by abolishing religion you'll make people more critical; they'll
> find something or somebody else to follow; they'll be made an "offer they
> can't refuse."
>
>
> > And of course
> > one can give a lot of examples of the absurdity that assuming true a
> > statement like there is a god!
>
>
> ...and the other way around.
>
>
> > Personally I think more the religious ideas are exposed to critical
> > thinking better for society... more people are allowed to question them
> > faster the society will move towards a better place... but maybe all
> > this is just wishful thinking...
>
>
> and here i finally agree with you. there's so much BS around, not only but
> also in the garb of religion.
>
>
> --
> phani.
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Greg Freemyer
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