Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-factory (286 mails)

[Richard Creighton <ricreig@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Friday 06 August 2010 11:38:01 Guido Berhoerster wrote:
> > > > > Kay
Sievers <kay.sievers@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > > > I think that /usr on nfs,
or even on a different disk should just
> > > > > > get a reality check, and
be finally dropped.
> > > > >

Please consider this; From the Filesystem
Hierarchy Standard (FHS):

The Directory Structure

/usr

    /usr has
nothing to do with users, but is the acronym for UNIX system resources. The
data in /usr is static, read-only data that can be shared among various
hosts compliant with the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard (FHS). This directory
contains all application programs and establishes a
secondary hierarchy in
the file system. KDE4 and GNOME are also located here. /usr holds a number
of sub-directories, such as /usr/bin, /usr/sbin, /usr/local, and
/usr/share/doc.


But, if it can't go to a separate partition, it can no
longer be shared either.

> > > > > Having /usr, /var, /opt and /tmp on
different partitions / disks is
> > > > > basically a standard setup for
lots of real-world corporate
> > > > > installations.

Real World
includes more than your laptop or minimal desktop machine.   It also
includes multi-machine LAN/WAN program and file server installations and if
we remove/alter the way openSUSE mangles the way the Directory Structure
which is designed to handle big and small installations alike, then what we
are saying is that openSUSE is a 'me too', desktop only platform with very
limited expansion capabilities and likely not suited in a potential
commercial environment.   


> > > > > The people who break such standard
setups (or even think about
> > > > > breaking them) all the time should
just get a reality check...

Some people have trouble focusing on anything
further than the end of their own nose.   Linux needs the standards to be
adhered to and not arbitrarily changed because it is convenient for lazy
programming practices to be effected.

> > > > /usr not on the
rootfs is broken since ages for anything that isn't a
> > > > simple server.
It does not make any sense to do that, and that's why
> > > > nobody really
cares.
> > > >

If one doesn't see that OS is more than a desktop, then
they probably won't.   If they can see that a robust OS, compatible with
standards that allow for easy UPsizing to large, multi-system installations
in a commercial, money producing environment, then they will care.   Devs
that take the lazy way out hurt their own chances for recognition because
the product they produce will by design, have a limited userbase that can't
be easily expanded or profited from.


> > > > Many things plugging into
udev/hotplug break if /usr is not available
> > > > at early boot. I stopped
asking people to fix such things.
> > > Unfortunately an all too
common attitude in Linuxland. Anyway,
> > > can we then just be honest and
officially abandon the now
> > > arbitrary /bin /sbin -- /usr/bin /usr/sbin
separation by moving
> > > stuff and symlinking /bin and /sbin to
/usr?

Alas, often true, but when you totally depend on volunteer
developers, unpaid, then you get what you pay for, stuff *they* are
interested in with the quality *they* feel liking imposing on themselves.  
Thankfully, many devs do a great job and consider it fun to produce a
quality product, but unfortunately, "many" is all too few considered what is
"required" to ensure consistency of quality.

<< WARNING> > 

> > Anything
like this sounds good to me. It's just a pretty useless
> > exercise with
this artificial split. I would understand to have 'the
> > desktop' split
out into /usr, but everything else is just crazy. An it

Really think before
you say things like that.   Maybe alright for a 'tinyNIX' on a laptop, but
not for a quality OS.


> > seems entirely random what we do here today.
The 'maybe needed at boot'
> > thing just does not mean anything today.

No,
it is needed, but not necessarily "there".   All that is needed is anything
required for the system to boot up to the point where all required file
systems and partitions are mounted and programs/data available.  That
normally would include system libraries, drivers, and any programs or
scripts required to finish the boot operations.   Everything (like DE's and
Desktop Managers, etc) can be put on the moon if a link is/can be
established after the boot is complete.  Failure to establish those links
wouldn't stop the boot, only affect what was unavailable, just like any
other disk/resource failure after the boot is complete.

> Well how do we
get this going, should I open a ticket on openfate
> to discuss this further
and see if there's any objections?
> It shouldn't be too much work, most of
the stuff is from
> Base:System packages. The symlinks should guarantee
backwards
> compatibility, anything I'm missing here?

Please don't do it
for that reason, do it to get the broken non-compliant issues fixed to bring
OS back into the most flexible, compliant, expandable, useful, productive,
fun platform available.

Richard 
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