Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-factory (661 mails)

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[opensuse-factory] Re: [opensuse-project] opensuse source?
  • From: Rob OpenSuSE <rob.opensuse.linux@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 18:15:45 +0000
  • Message-id: <ce9d8ed60912051015uf26b088nef489b53edec4030@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
2009/12/5 Peter Pöml <poeml@xxxxxxxxxxx>:
Am 05.12.2009 um 13:46 schrieb Rob OpenSuSE:

They are currently available, the thing is it's easy to look in the
wrong place, and they are not where one expects to find them.  May be
binary mirrors could simply include ReadmeSource file, which contains
the actual URI as a reminder.

Indeed, I thought about the same! I think that would help a lot - it would
help all people looking at that place, which is indeed a logical place to
look. In addition, since the file would be replicated to the mirrors, the
information would spread to those additional places.

Talk to Adrian and Coolo, they can get that arranged I'd think!

Can try knocking up a file and seeing what they say.

Well, what is the use case for end users to get the sources? What do they
intend to do with it - how can we help them? Is it just about having the
sources installed, out of interest?

As I wrote before, there's the "have all the source available" for
strategic security independance reasons, and then the potential
community member who's curiosity may draw them into playing with the
stuff, finding out how it's put together, or who would like to make a
small alteration to something.

Do you think that http://download-sources.opensuse.org/ would be better
than
http://download.opensuse.org/source/ ? I don't think so.

Actually yes, because I looked at the repo list likely 100 times,
before I noticed that first level directory change.  I think it's
easier to spot differences at start, or end of a URI, but not in the
middle.  Once you KNOW the top level directory is different, it is
obivous, until then it is easy to miss.

I don't think that this would help you; I'm rather convinced of the
opposite. If the files are on the same host (the one you are looking at),
you have at least a chance to find what you look for. If the files are on a
different host, you can stare at the listing as long as you want, to no
avail.

Fact is the OP and myself could not find the source rpm's despite
looking, and Google was not very helpful either, this is my
explanation.

When you inspect the software repo's on the machine, in the "Software
Repository Manager" there are a list with URLs visible (unfortunately
I cannot copy & paste directly so this list is editted here to shorten
irrelevant details) :

Updates for openSUSE 11.2-0
http://download.opensuse.org/update/11.2/
openSUSE 11.2-0
http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2/repo/oss/
openSUSE-11.2-Debug
http://download.opensuse.org/debug/distribution/11.2/repo/oss/
openSUSE-11.2-Source
http://download.opensuse.org/source/distribution/11.2/repo/oss/

Simply the brain see's patterns and uses the regularity as a shortcut,
which usually works well, in this case I think
"http://download.opensuse.org/ ... istribution/11.2/repo/oss/", so it
is easy to miss the top level directory diffrerence.

Same host, and directories are falling into a pattern. Like this I am
sure that the difference stands out more :

Updates for openSUSE 11.2-0 http://updates.opensuse.org/11.2
openSUSE 11.2-0
http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2/repo/oss/
openSUSE-11.2-Debug
http://debug.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2/repo/oss/
openSUSE-11.2-Source
http://source.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2/repo/oss/

URLs are clearly different, web browsers train us to check the host
part, the difference is not obfuscated by coming in middle of long
piece of text. Technically of course, the URI can be written into the
appropriate top level form.

By the way, does the functionality take care of updates as well, and keeps
the installed source RPMs updated? Otherwise it'd be quite useless (even
dangerous). And does it make sure not to overwrite sources that the local
user may have modified?
If not, it's a pain. And while I'm at asking silly
questions, does installation of source RPMs work at all, without each source
RPM overwriting files of another source RPM by accident, if not every name
is globally unique? Did you know that all files of all source RPMs are
installed into a single directory - /usr/src/packages/SOURCES? And the best
of it all, you cannot query the RPM database to find out which files belong
to installed source RPMs - rpm just throws them at the system, and doesn't
take note of what it puts where, as it does for binary RPMs. Yes, it's
really primitive :-) Nothing you could seriously work with. But if you want
the above mentioned functionality, you'd probably want it working in
complete. No?

Presumbably installing a self built RPM changes the vendor. Yes,
there are limitations, which is why a tool to grab all the installed
rpm's would be better than actually installing them. If updates are
made patching GPL progs, the source & build tool files HAVE to be
available somewhere on request or we don't have the right to
distribute them!

Let's face it, source RPMs are the undeads of a dark past, only there for
archival and no developer wants to work with them, because it'd be a total
pain.

Until the distro changes to another package management system, or
alter's RPM it's what we have. Using OBS and build tools still have
to write a spec file, etc etc.

At present, in order to package up some developed software, creating a
source rpm, and installable binary rpm files, does seem to be a
necessary step. Furthermore, a good beginning is often to download
source rpm, and get a specfile, written for another distro, if it's
present, and then patching for SuSE.

Despite limitations I would think the main reason to keep them, is
that it is a widely spread format, used by other distro's and with
documentation available.

Rob
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