Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-factory (673 mails)

["Rajko M." <rmatov101@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Saturday 06 September 2008 11:10:38 am Fred A. Miller wrote:
> Rajko M. wrote:
> > On Saturday 06 September 2008 06:48:51 am Martin Schlander wrote:
> > > Fredag 05 september 2008 19:57:36 skrev Fred A. Miller:
> > > > Michael Loeffler wrote:
> > > > > We'll try to put again both KDEs on the media.
> > > >
> > > > Ok......thanks! I think all we need, ASSUMING KDE 4.2 is a FULL
> > > > COMPLETE release for KDE 3.5, is to have 3.5 included with the next
> > > > release of openSUSE.
> > > > It can be dropped after that.
> > >
> > > It's still unknown when 11.2 is released - it might even have KDE 4.3 -
> > > if it's released in the fall of 2009 - which I consider likely given
> > > that 2009 is SLE year which will absorb much developer time.
> > >
> > > But I can tell you right now with 100% certainty that neither KDE 4.2
> > > nor 4.3 will be identical with KDE 3.5. And it's still extremely vague
> > > what you guys define as "full complete", to say the least.
> >
> > Full complete means "all functions that I use", which is not well defined
> > even by very organized people.
>
> What is so difficult about knowing what is current in 3.5? 

If it is easy to list, I would assume that you will do that long time ago 
instead of repeating ALL, SAME etc, blanket listings that someone else has to 
fill with actual feature names. If I would be so passionate defender of good 
old KDE{1,2,3} I would long time ago have a list. 

> Simply have 
> the SAME configurations available in 4.*.

Icon size settings came in mind as first candidate to remove first, but it is 
ported. 

With desktop that can show SVG (vector) graphic it is useless. 
How many more KDE3 options is useless too? 
That is why guys that want to create new desktop, without ballast of features 
(and settings) that were seldom used, asking time and again what is missing. 

> > When I see "FULL, COMPLETE, FINISHED" after so many requests by KDE guys
> > to name missing features and getting the same answer time and again,
> > points to guys with to much time on their hands and wish to goof around
> > with those "Linux zealots".
>
> You don't live in the real world like some of us do.

It seems quite opposite. For instance, see below:
---- Start here ------------------------------------------------
> > Someone mentioned "can't hide taskbar". I used it once to check how it
> > works, so, while I know what it is, I will not miss it a bit.
>
> You sound like a "Softie," Rajko! Just because you don't use it doesn't
> mean it isn't need by others! On a letter box type monitor, it's not as
> big a deal, but on a wide screen, most seen with laptops, you can
> recover some realestate that is desired by a LOT of users. It's one of
> the reasons that I removed 4.* from ALL clients that I had put it
> on...the complaints were 100% for ALL laptop users!
>
> > On the other side, ability to size and position taskbar in any direction
> > with all icons in it, is for me feature that was missing since ever, and
> > now I have it. Cry for old good hide etc, seems to be just "I didn't
> > tried to find what's new, but I don't like it".
>
> It's a good feature for some people...I don't need it, but that doesn't
> mean someone else doesn't.
---- End here ------------------------------------------------

What you see? 
I can tell you what I see, a guy that is so focused on current soultion that 
can't see feature that will improve overall experience of his users, and it 
is not so original solution, as Vista has right side of the wide screens 
occupied with something that resembles on taskbar. Move (mumble) taskbar on 
side, instead to learn users to hide/unhide it all the time. 
See for instance this:
http://en.opensuse.org/Image:KDE4-4.1-oxygen-sample-custom.jpeg
Whole height is yours, and no hiding/showing. 

> > > Besides a couple of missing features and a few bugs, are only part of
> > > what people complain about regarding KDE4 - backwards compatibility of
> > > settings and simply being "different" are just as prominent complaints -
> > > and those "problems" are not exactly likely to diminish over time imho.
> >
> > Differences will only grow.
> > Once people realize that old settings were just the best approximation of
> > graphical desktop, because computers at that time couldn't handle what
> > they can today, requests for new type of features will multiply and
> > number of differences will grow.
>
> Oh really? The "old features" and "old configurabiltiy" don't have squat
> to do with new hardware or graphic desktop. It has EVERYTHING to do with
> have a desktop setup to work the way a USER wants it to....NOT a developer.
 
The GUI in KDE4 has new capabilities, and it can work fine in a new way 
without old features. Why should one port "all" when in lesser then year no 
one will ask for many them. 

For instance, new icons can be SVG graphic. Resizable at will, so what good 
will bring module to set sizes. It is already ported, but once users get used 
that icons can be any size they want, on case by case basis, allowing them to 
sort desktop in a new way, it will be just a piece of bloat. See Thunderbird 
icon on above image. It is fixed size image, not vector graphic. It fits fine 
in old concepts, but it is not the best in a new one. 

And so on. 

Even more important, is that what users want is important to developers 
because they are nice guys, but they have no obligation to the users. It is 
just the opposite. They gave us their work for free. We owe them. 

What would you say if you give money to somebody and instead of thank you, 
hear that you are stingy, banknote was old, and whatnot. 

...
> > I agree. That would be a good reason to start limiting KDE3 support now,
> > and make clear that there will be no KDE3 on 11.2 media, only in OBS for
> > those that can't switch to KDE4 so fast. ...
>
> No, that isn't a good idea....limited in 11.1. You only "move on" when
> you can take everyone else with you, unless you're anxious to reduce
> market share.

What market share? 
Others are closing doors big time. With openSUSE KDE3 users have at least 
Build Service as an option to be at newest stand, with others there will be 
no options, but to stay with old release. Other are not afraid to loose 
market share, why should be openSUSE worried when it is offering more.    

> > Other distributions force change because Linux can't stay with GUI
> > developed for hardware capabilities from 2000. Presentations, or
> > eyecandies, move from specialized applications to desktop, and if OS
> > can't provide tools it will stay away from mainstream. Some use cases can
> > live, even today, with a command line and everything between, but most of
> > the users will appreciate smoother feeling of the new desktop once
> > application developers get used to new tools and start using them more
> > then now. Now is rush to move applications from 3 to 4, but then it will
> > start time of GUI improvements.
>
> For the last time, I, nor the majority are against 4.*!!! It's going to
> be, I hope, the best ever in time. But, it ISN'T now because (drum roll,
> once again) it ISN'T configurable like 3.5 nor has the features of 3.5.
> For 4.* to really succeed, it MUST have both.

Fred, you want to wait until it has "all" the features and configuration. 
How it will happen? 
When KDE labs find right features that fit new layout and capabilities, than 
develop and test all software. :-) 
Good idea, but it is FOSS, lab is our skin. 

I'm not delighted with some KDE4 perks, but I'm trying to help transition and 
be over with it. Procrastinating visit to dentist will not remove a pain. 

-- 
Regards, Rajko
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