Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-factory (673 mails)

["Larry Stotler" <larrystotler@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Bryen <suserocks@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> In everything that you've said, one question remains unclear.  Why do
> users who prefer KDE 3.5 have to update to 11.1?   11.0 will still be
> supported for up to 1 1/2 years after the release of 11.1.  Furthermore,
> it is still unclear that KDE 4.2 will be the be-all-end-all that finally
> fixes the issues that users perceive thus far with 4.x.

Ok, then why should I bother to test the 11.0 Alpha/Betas?  v11.0 came
with a much improved package system.  v10.2 was worlds better than
10.1(especially considering that the kernel broke support for the old
world macs.  Couldn't even install it on them).  Why should anyone
upgrade?  But why should anyone be told they shouldn't upgrade?  Look,
it's a moot point.  They have decided to include 3.5.x in 11.1.  The
question was how to do it.

> I'm not a KDE user, and thus can't speak to the issues of what is
> good/bad about KDE 4.x, but I have watched the debate over time and saw
> people say that 4.0 was going to be the killer Desktop.  Then it came
> out and people were disappointed.  So everyone said, "Can't wait until
> 4.1 comes out, that's going to fix all the problems."  Yet some people
> still were disappointed.  Now I'm hearing "4.2 will solve it."

That's because KDE4 was pushed out before it was even remotely feature
complete.  The reasoning was so that other devs of KDE based products
could start porting to the new version since it's a break from the
past.  KDE4 is basically a complete re-write of KDE.  The devs have
been saying that KDE 4.2 should be a mostly feature complete desktop.
Techinally, 4.1 should be 4.0 Beta.  Which means that while is is
usable as a desktop, it's not fully tested and working.  Honestly, the
openSUSE KDE devs did a good job on the KDE4 in 11.0, but it's still a
long way from usable for some.  My biggest complaint is that it's
supposed to be so much faster, but it was slower.  Maybe it's because
I use older hardware and don't have a good 3d card and dual core chip
in every machine.  But, even on my Celeron DC that's overclocked, it
is still slower.  Of course, it's only running an X300, so maybe I
just need to spend money to upgrade to be able to "enjoy" the KDE4
experience.  On that note, I could care less about all the new Bling
effects that KDE4 offers.  Whoop-de-do.  My first impression was a
groan because I thought it was my roommate's laptop that runs Vista,
it's so Vista like in so many ways.

> The thing is, we choose to be on openSUSE because we want some bleeding
> edge.  Otherwise, we'd be using SLED/SLES.  But how do we test new
> releases, whether it be KDE, GNOME, XFCE, etc. if we don't have the
> opportunity to test regularly in real-world situations?     For those
> who want to stay with tried and true, stick with the older version of
> openSUSE.  For those who want to take the plunge, go with the latest and
> debatably-greatest, and continue to provide feedback through various
> mechanisms so that when we finally achieve true stability and
> functionality, those who could not afford to be on the bleeding edge
> will be able to make the transition.

True, but SUSE has always had a reputation for stability and the 10.1
release hurt that.  Further, there were a lot more KDE4 bugs than most
people felt should have been left.  I dunno.  I wasn't involved with
11.0's build process until late, and I just used KDE3.  Shoot, I still
use ReiserFS for all my partitions.  It's much faster at recovery than
ext3 and much easier.  Fedora removed KDE3 and lost a good many users
because of that.  Their version of KDE4 was nowhere near as good as
openSUSE's from what I have heard.  I dunno.  I was running Fedora 8
until recently on one box, but after hearing about 9, I just installed
openSUSE on that machine.  While I don't always use the latest and
greatest, it's nice to have that option.  Besides, everyone was asked
their opinion.  I gave mine.

> The point of whether KDE is widely used is irrelevant.  If you want to
> make that point, then definitely the same argument would have to be
> applied to kernel releases, since obviously EVERYONE uses the
> kernel.  :-)  The greater point is that we're a community willing to
> take some risks in order to further the effectiveness of each distro
> release while providing some stability for older releases.

The poll showed that 40% of openSUSE users(who responded) used KDE3.
So, we should just lose that many users because some people don't want
KDE3 anymore because KDE4 is the "newer, better model"?

> If you feel you cannot take the plunge into KDE 4.x at this time, stick
> with 11.0 or 10.3, which will be supported for another 13 months from
> now.  By which time, perhaps KDE 4.x will finally be at a satisfactory
> level for you.

Who knows if it will ever be there.  I dunno.  I've been using KDE
since SuSE v5.3, and this is the first total change that I have seen.
For me, KDE worked.  It didn't need replacing just to add all kinds of
features I could care less about.  That's what happens in retail.
Gotta discontinue to drop what I like because there's a newer model
that doesn't do what I need or what I like anymore.....

> But to prevent distro releases solely based on one component stands in
> the way of progress, for which I believe openSUSE stands for.

10.1 was delayed when rug and libzypp were rammed down the distro's
throat.  That was a VERY questionable action that resulted in a
release with a broken package system.  Then we were told there wasn't
going to be a remaster of it, and then there was 2 months before 10.2
was released.  That's what I call a bad decision.  Waiting to work out
bugs and add in an improved(hopefully) version is what I call smart
decision making.  But, I', not in charge, so all I can do is offer my
opinion.  It may be taken, it may not be.
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