Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-factory (673 mails)

["Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Rajko M. wrote:
> On Saturday 06 September 2008 06:48:51 am Martin Schlander wrote:
> > Fredag 05 september 2008 19:57:36 skrev Fred A. Miller:
> > > Michael Loeffler wrote:
> > > > We'll try to put again both KDEs on the media.
> > > Ok......thanks! I think all we need, ASSUMING KDE 4.2 is a FULL COMPLETE
> > > release for KDE 3.5, is to have 3.5 included with the next release of
> > > openSUSE.
> > > It can be dropped after that.
> > It's still unknown when 11.2 is released - it might even have KDE 4.3 - if
> > it's released in the fall of 2009 - which I consider likely given that 2009
> > is SLE year which will absorb much developer time.
> >
> > But I can tell you right now with 100% certainty that neither KDE 4.2 nor
> > 4.3 will be identical with KDE 3.5. And it's still extremely vague what you
> > guys define as "full complete", to say the least.
>
> Full complete means "all functions that I use", which is not well defined 
> even 
> by very organized people. 

What is so difficult about knowing what is current in 3.5? Simply have
the SAME configurations available in 4.*.

> When I see "FULL, COMPLETE, FINISHED" after so many requests by KDE guys to 
> name missing features and getting the same answer time and again, points to 
> guys with to much time on their hands and wish to goof around with 
> those "Linux zealots". 

You don't live in the real world like some of us do.

> Someone mentioned "can't hide taskbar". I used it once to check how it works, 
> so, while I know what it is, I will not miss it a bit. 

You sound like a "Softie," Rajko! Just because you don't use it doesn't
mean it isn't need by others! On a letter box type monitor, it's not as
big a deal, but on a wide screen, most seen with laptops, you can
recover some realestate that is desired by a LOT of users. It's one of
the reasons that I removed 4.* from ALL clients that I had put it
on...the complaints were 100% for ALL laptop users!

> On the other side, ability to size and position taskbar in any direction with 
> all icons in it, is for me feature that was missing since ever, and now I 
> have it. Cry for old good hide etc, seems to be just "I didn't tried to find 
> what's new, but I don't like it". 

It's a good feature for some people...I don't need it, but that doesn't
mean someone else doesn't.

> > Besides a couple of missing features and a few bugs, are only part of what
> > people complain about regarding KDE4 - backwards compatibility of settings
> > and simply being "different" are just as prominent complaints - and those
> > "problems" are not exactly likely to diminish over time imho.
>
> Differences will only grow. 
> Once people realize that old settings were just the best approximation of 
> graphical desktop, because computers at that time couldn't handle what they 
> can today, requests for new type of features will multiply and number of 
> differences will grow.  

Oh really? The "old features" and "old configurabiltiy" don't have squat
to do with new hardware or graphic desktop. It has EVERYTHING to do with
have a desktop setup to work the way a USER wants it to....NOT a developer.

> > Furthermore, openSUSE 11.1 may attract hordes of these types of users from
> > other distros, since it'll be the only major distro still shipping KDE3 on
> > the media at that time (well, along with Debian Lenny). Therefore I think
> > it's likely we'll still see a substantial segment of users demanding KDE3
> > at 11.2 time, maybe even bigger than now ;-)

That depends on if all the features of 3.5 are in 4.2.

> > So I think we should make an effort to communicate very clearly that 11.1
> > will be the very last release officially supporting KDE3 - and that
> > attaching yourself deeper into a legacy desktop with no future, is probably
> > not a very good idea for most people in the long run. 
>
> I agree. That would be a good reason to start limiting KDE3 support now, and 
> make clear that there will be no KDE3 on 11.2 media, only in OBS for those 
> that can't switch to KDE4 so fast. Although openSUSE is not a commercial 
> version, by now it didn't left users in the cold, but it is time to move on. 

No, that isn't a good idea....limited in 11.1. You only "move on" when
you can take everyone else with you, unless you're anxious to reduce
market share.

> Other distributions force change because Linux can't stay with GUI developed 
> for hardware capabilities from 2000. Presentations, or eyecandies, move from 
> specialized applications to desktop, and if OS can't provide tools it will 
> stay away from mainstream. Some use cases can live, even today, with a 
> command line and everything between, but most of the users will appreciate 
> smoother feeling of the new desktop once application developers get used to 
> new tools and start using them more then now. Now is rush to move 
> applications from 3 to 4, but then it will start time of GUI improvements. 

For the last time, I, nor the majority are against 4.*!!! It's going to
be, I hope, the best ever in time. But, it ISN'T now because (drum roll,
once again) it ISN'T configurable like 3.5 nor has the features of 3.5.
For 4.* to really succeed, it MUST have both.

Fred

-- 
"Security" in Windows comes from patching a sieve.
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