Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-factory (673 mails)
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Re: [opensuse-factory] The KDE way for openSUSE 11.1
- From: "Larry Stotler" <larrystotler@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 09:48:16 -0400
- Message-id: <9bb996600809060648r63df2fe0h478845a214a25eb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 5:51 AM, Rajko M. <rmatov101@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Yeah, that hapopened when they forced rug and libzypp into 10.1 Bte3
or 4.....and we saw how much of a disasater that was. They released a
system with a broken package manager that wouldnt' even update itself.
So, it's not like a major change has ever been authorized before
after the feature freeze.
As for always waiting for something unfinished, yes, that is the case.
However, KDE is basically the largest part of openSUSE, with Gnome
probably being second. So, in that case, I would think that it would
make more sense to synchronize a release schedule with KDE4 since it
is such a huge project and it has underwent such major changes.
I realize that. I had asked about firefox3 back before 11.0 came out.
My question is whether or not FF3 was a pushed update for everyone,
or did you have to have the Mozilla buld server as a repo to get 3.0
final. While I set up my repos with that and got the 3.0 final, how
did it go for the rest of the users, expecially the new ones? Same
thing with KDE4. I got 4.1 because it was part of my repos, but most
users(probably 80%) will still have 4.04 that came with 11.0. Since
it's so much more problematic to update a major component like that
after the distro is released, then a small delay, which is common in
most projects anyway, makes sense to me. Again, I'm not a programmer,
and not in charge of any development projects, so I don't know what
all that entails. But, IMO, KDE4 is a big enough reason for a wait
where something like openoffice wouldn't be.
There should be a way to give people a notification that a newer
version of the software is avalable and ask whether they want to
upgrade for smaller projects like openofice and firefox. IF a
prerelease/beta version is included because there wasn't time to wait.
Yep, which is why the default install pushes KDE4 apps on a KDE3
desktop when the KDE3 apps are better and more stable. That's problem
more so than the other way. I had to manually deselect so may KDE4
apps to get KDE3 back to it's default state. It would be one thing if
it was an app that KDE3 didn't have, but to repleace a KDE3 app with a
KDE4 app for no real reason makes no sense to me. .
I realize that KDE4 is "the wave of the future", especially because
while there has been many people calling for a "fork", no one has
stepped up to do so. However, I just feel that the KDE team could
have handled this changeover in a better way. Hopefully, everyone
learns from this and these kind of changes are better planned for next
time. That's the strength of this community. When mistakes are make,
it's a learning process. Except in cases like XFree and their "small,
insignificant license change" that cause the fork to X.org and no one
really making use of Xfree anymore.
Besides, everyone was aksed for their opinion. And, we will always
have disagreement. But at least the openSUSE KDE team has listened to
what we have said and s trying. It's no longer a question of whether
11.1 will have KDE3, it's a question of how and what they will have to
cut to build the iso images. That's why I proposed having a KDE3 and
a KDE4 image. Give people the choice. Personally, I'd like to see CD
based install isos, but that has been removed other than the liveCDs.
And, having installed from the KDE4 liveCD and trying to remove KDE4
and install KDE3 and not being able to, I think that was the biggest
problem with 11.0's release. Thankfully, someone stepped up and
helped us out and those CD's are great.
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It will not happen, as you always have something that is not yet finished, but
it will be soon. If release is postponed for KDE4, than why not for kernel,
GNOME, Xfce etc, etc, and that would mean the release day will never come.
Yeah, that hapopened when they forced rug and libzypp into 10.1 Bte3
or 4.....and we saw how much of a disasater that was. They released a
system with a broken package manager that wouldnt' even update itself.
So, it's not like a major change has ever been authorized before
after the feature freeze.
As for always waiting for something unfinished, yes, that is the case.
However, KDE is basically the largest part of openSUSE, with Gnome
probably being second. So, in that case, I would think that it would
make more sense to synchronize a release schedule with KDE4 since it
is such a huge project and it has underwent such major changes.
The openSUSE 11.1 will be snapshot of current status of OSS application on a
given day that was possible to convince to play nicely.
I realize that. I had asked about firefox3 back before 11.0 came out.
My question is whether or not FF3 was a pushed update for everyone,
or did you have to have the Mozilla buld server as a repo to get 3.0
final. While I set up my repos with that and got the 3.0 final, how
did it go for the rest of the users, expecially the new ones? Same
thing with KDE4. I got 4.1 because it was part of my repos, but most
users(probably 80%) will still have 4.04 that came with 11.0. Since
it's so much more problematic to update a major component like that
after the distro is released, then a small delay, which is common in
most projects anyway, makes sense to me. Again, I'm not a programmer,
and not in charge of any development projects, so I don't know what
all that entails. But, IMO, KDE4 is a big enough reason for a wait
where something like openoffice wouldn't be.
There should be a way to give people a notification that a newer
version of the software is avalable and ask whether they want to
upgrade for smaller projects like openofice and firefox. IF a
prerelease/beta version is included because there wasn't time to wait.
Besides, it is proposed to include KDE3 applications to fill in for missing or
buggy KDE4 counterparts. That means some basic of KDE3 will be actually
included.
One of things that will be missing is unwanted interaction between KDE3 and
KDE4 desktops. Looking on the lists, many reported "KDE4 problems" are just
that.
Yep, which is why the default install pushes KDE4 apps on a KDE3
desktop when the KDE3 apps are better and more stable. That's problem
more so than the other way. I had to manually deselect so may KDE4
apps to get KDE3 back to it's default state. It would be one thing if
it was an app that KDE3 didn't have, but to repleace a KDE3 app with a
KDE4 app for no real reason makes no sense to me. .
I realize that KDE4 is "the wave of the future", especially because
while there has been many people calling for a "fork", no one has
stepped up to do so. However, I just feel that the KDE team could
have handled this changeover in a better way. Hopefully, everyone
learns from this and these kind of changes are better planned for next
time. That's the strength of this community. When mistakes are make,
it's a learning process. Except in cases like XFree and their "small,
insignificant license change" that cause the fork to X.org and no one
really making use of Xfree anymore.
Besides, everyone was aksed for their opinion. And, we will always
have disagreement. But at least the openSUSE KDE team has listened to
what we have said and s trying. It's no longer a question of whether
11.1 will have KDE3, it's a question of how and what they will have to
cut to build the iso images. That's why I proposed having a KDE3 and
a KDE4 image. Give people the choice. Personally, I'd like to see CD
based install isos, but that has been removed other than the liveCDs.
And, having installed from the KDE4 liveCD and trying to remove KDE4
and install KDE3 and not being able to, I think that was the biggest
problem with 11.0's release. Thankfully, someone stepped up and
helped us out and those CD's are great.
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For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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