Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-factory (464 mails)

[Sid Boyce <sboyce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
> I read this interesting wiki
>
> http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Projects/Lived_in_Project/Ubuntu#Experience_of_switching_to_Factory_from_Ubuntu
>
> There are some interesting points I share, and some points that imho are
> what characterize SUSE since the beginning, so I think it would be
> interesting to discuss them a bit to hear what users think.
>
> Vincent, the author of the page, asked me to clarify that what he wrote
> are his opinions. Of course it's the same for what I write. :-)
>
> I will comment point-to-point, hoping not to forget any. Quoted text is
> from the page.
>
> Let's start:
>
> > Note that some of the items here are simply caused by the fact that
> > openSUSE tries to be everything at the same time (distro for server,
> > desktop, etc.). It might make sense to have an install CD for server,
> > and another one for desktop.
>
> I like the full-featured DVD, which can do everything. And I think that
> having everything in one place just adds value and simplifies things
> both for the final users and for the maintainers. I mean: 1 medium
> allows you to do what you need to, and it's easier to keep under control
> its quality, at least in the general aspects (more people use it).
I fully agree here as I can set up a box even for a complete novice or 
for anyone knowing that just about everything needed is available to 
hand. I have done this for a newbie with no internet connection, just 
needing the latest patch CD and Google Picasa on a memory stick.

> > Also, there's something wrong with factory if we want people to use it
> > (especially developers). Ubuntu is doing a much better job here.
Largely factory plays well with me. It's a good idea to get the latest 
stuff out there and tested.
In the past I have had to use Ubuntu Kernels to get my acx111 card 
working as openSUSE does not provide sources for many of the extra 
modules and I've never got apparmor to slot into a vanilla kernel - may 
be due to total lack of HOWTO information or a script to handle it.

> > the installer is way too complex, with too many things to do, even with
> > the current simplification work going on in Factory.
>
> Yes, it does a lot of things and it takes longer than ubuntu, that's
> sure. But on the contrary it leaves you with a fully configured system,
> with the software selection you want, with network properly configured
> even if you have various interfaces, with a firewall properly set-up and
> with running printing services. So I vote for keeping it long.
The installer is just fine, it all depends on perspective as going the 
other way from openSUSE to Ubuntu is not without difficulty.

> > sudo should be used by default for a desktop install. It doesn't make
> > any sense to have the root account. There's an option "Use the same
> > password for root as the one used for the user" in the installer, but
> > it's not about sudo, I believe.
>
> Thanks for pointing this out. I was myself a sudo supporter, but someone
> with more technical experience than me explained to me that sudo is not
> the right way to follow for various security/conceptual reasons, and I
> agree. In the end, UNIX has root, and the users should learn to manage
> it. It doesn't add complexity if properly explained.
>
> About the "Use the same password for root", I think it's plain wrong.
> Using the same password for root and the user reduces security.
That's where I first got lost on Ubuntu and don't understand logic of 
using the same password for user and root (sudo), it takes a little bit 
of getting used to. I had installed Kubuntu on a laptop so I could give 
remote assistance to a newbie and in fact it was the newbie who clued me 
in on that one. Every distro has its own oddities, but you could move 
from Solaris to openSUSE and find many things done the standard Unix way.
Another newbie who had Ubuntu installed (7.04) tried and failed to get 
skype installed, I tried and also failed. I was left with the impression 
that that one difficulty was causing his interest in using Linux to wane.
As I mentioned above, going the other way, you also find strangeness. 
Using Fedora you meet other oddities. Ubuntu, freespire and SimplyMEPIS 
are on a par doing things the same way.

> > in openSUSE, there are two radeon drivers: the old one and the
> > randr1.2-enabled one (new one), probably because the new one is still
> > in beta. Still, it doesn't make much sense to have both and the new one
> > works fine. Only this one should be used.
>
> I agree. If the one selected is really working in all the cases. If not,
> better two than a complaining user.
>
> > on startup, there's a 10 seconds delay in grub. Ubuntu only uses 1 or 2
> > seconds. It helps with the feeling of booting faster.
> > Ubuntu seems to boot faster. There might be less services, some
> > services are started after GDM is shown, etc. upstart might help too.
>
> Ten seconds in grub are a reasonable time to allow the user to select
> the operating system. And I think it's a basic requirement also for
> accessibility. Not all users are young, fast and without issues.
I never get the problem people have with start up times, either for the 
system or an app such as OpenOffice, what matters to me is overall how 
responsive the box is once it's up.

> > Ubuntu uses brown as the color for the root window when starting GDM
> > (it's a gdm config option, I believe). It helps with the transition
> > from the brown gdm theme to the brown default background on the user
> > desktop. In openSUSE, we still use the greyish blue. It should be some
> > green.
>
> Hehe I love green, so I agree. But green is not much appreciated by
> various users, who switched back to blue or personalised backgrounds.
>
> > the menu bar is completely unusable in openSUSE: icons are too big
> > (distro patch), and there are tons of submenus (because we use the same
> > menu config as KDE?)
>
> I think it's related to the idea of offering a comparable choice of
> applications to the users on both DE.
>
> The real, not addressed, point is that the menu (main-menu) is not well
> implemented and it's probably one of the most buggy piece of software we
> have (read never solved leaks). I would love to see a kickoff-like
> implementation in place of the app-browser.
That's all about fashion statements and what one person likes to wear, 
another will not be seen dead in. I like my desktop backgrounds to be 
decked out with aeroplanes, things like A380 cockpits are great for me, 
other than that I can work with all the other stuff. I use kde3 on most 
desktops and I have one here using kde4. Soon all will be using kde4 
which is quite a bit different in most respects to kde3, doesn't really 
matter.

> > with only a very short look, I saw many
> > not-updated-to-the-latest-versions packages: yelp, totem, epiphany,
> > rhythmbox for example.
>
> This is SUSE policy. The released version is not upgraded until the next
> release. I usually agree with it, because it's thought to grant
> stability, but I think it was used in the wrong way sometime, not
> providing updates when features were lacking (for 10.3, read: anjuta,
> gedit with python support, ...).
>
>
> > Ubuntu is quite good at uploading new packages as soon as upstream
> > releases (at least, for GNOME). This is really great for a developer
> > like me.
>
> I agree. But I don't want to think to continuous updates to the released
> version ;-)
>
> > when I update openSUSE with "zypper dup", I have to download nearly 1GB
> > of packages. I seriously doubt that all of them were updated. It takes
> > me hours to get all updates... (slow DSL line)
>
> This is because dependency issues in the gnome side at opensuse are
> historical. One package usually brings half of gnome with itself. I
> don't know if it's necessary, but it's a common complaining we get.
>
> > the Ubuntu development version is nearly never broken. Factory is
> > always broken in some way (still usable, but either no network, or
> > uninstallable updates, or impossible to mount a usb key, etc.).
>
> Another historical issue. I always read/experienced these issues.
>
> > I had to manually install the firmwares for my intel wireless card
> > when I don't have a gstreamer plugin, totem shows a dialog proposing me
> > to install it. It just opens a webpage. Ubuntu actually installs the
> > right package (and adds the repository if needed)
>
> Well, ubuntu violates a bunch of laws doing that :-)
> The intel firmware is provided on a non-OSS support and on the DVD, and
> should be installed by default. Online there's the non-OSS repository,
> which can be added at installation time. Keeping OSS and non-OSS
> separated is one of the long discussed key decision openSUSE made.
>
> > I couldn't find all gstreamer plugins for factory... So no multimedia
> > experience for me.
>
> This depends on the fact that those plugins can't be hosted in -factory
> for the same legal reasons they're not provided with the distribution.
> Moreover they're packaged by non-Novell related guys.
>
> > it's actually confusing to have so many repositories on
> > software.opensuse.org. If possible, everything should go to the main
> > factory repository.
>
> I agree. But for codecs, drivers and others things, there are legal
> issues.
>
> > there are tons of installed packages by default that don't make any
> > sense. Some graphical ones (gftp? skencil?), some non-graphical (tcsh,
> > ksh, zsh: do we really need all shells by default?)
>
> Well, except gftp (the only decent FTP client for GNOME), the rest
> should be removed. It's ages we get the complaint of suse having this
> issue.
>
> > Ubuntu doesn't use a firewall by default because the default services
> > are secure and trusted (ssh, avahi, eg). With openSUSE, I have to
> > choose what I want to do with the firewall.
>
> Ubuntu does wrong on this side. Services are secure until you don't
> prove the contrary, and this happens often, considering that SSH is
> regularly patched, for example.
> A firewall is necessary imho, but its configuration should be easier.
> For example, while it's easy to open SSH port, it's a mess to have a
> properly working samba because of closed highports (hehe I know I said
> this too many times).
>
> > too many unneeded yast stuff. Users don't need to know about apparmor.
>
> Why not? A user can happily ignore that. Who does decide that the user
> doesn't need to know? That's not the UNIX philosophy. The user should
> LEARN to use his system, and the system should provide sensible
> defaults, of course (as a proper AppArmor configuration).
>
> > A tool to config the mouse model in X shouldn't be needed.
>
> The model of the mouse is selected in SaX, where the whole X is
> configured, and I think it's there because it might be necessary to set
> things in a fine way in certain cases.
>
> > There are 8 >launchers in the Software category and I don't understand
> > what they >are... etc.
>
> Perfectly agree on this!
>
> > seahorse/gnome-keyring integration: in Ubuntu, when I ssh somewhere, a
> > dialog pops up. In openSUSE, I need to use the standard ssh-agent, it
> > seems.
>
> I agree on this one too :)
>
> > in the middle of the afternoon, I see beagle-build-index and the man db
> > rebuild happening. Lots of hard disk use. Middle of the afternoon is
> > when I use my computer. It should be done during the night if possible.
>
> Hmm. This looks like a cron-job issue. It's usually done around late
> evening here.
Going back a while, perhaps to 9.x, you could set udpdatedb to fire off 
at some a convenient time, but that changed. Can't find anything 
changeable in /etc/cron.daily/suse.de-updatedb.

When I'm using OpenSUSE,  kubuntu or Mandriva or any other distro, I 
just go with the flow and I don't see any pressing reasons for any of 
them to ditch the way they do Linux by thinking that one distro has all 
the answers. My measure is if my openSUSE boxes all got destroyed and I 
had to use someone else's Linux box with any other distro installed - 
Could I get my work done? Sure - at times I've used a Linux box not 
knowing at the time that it was a Linux box.
Regards
Sid.
--
Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot
Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support 
Specialist, Cricket Coach
Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks

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