Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-factory (464 mails)

[Vincent Untz <vuntz@xxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi,

Le mercredi 27 février 2008 à 13:37 -0600, Alberto Passalacqua a écrit :
> I read this interesting wiki
>
> http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Projects/Lived_in_Project/Ubuntu#Experience_of_switching_to_Factory_from_Ubuntu
>
> There are some interesting points I share, and some points that imho are
> what characterize SUSE since the beginning, so I think it would be
> interesting to discuss them a bit to hear what users think.
>
> Vincent, the author of the page, asked me to clarify that what he wrote
> are his opinions. Of course it's the same for what I write. :-)

Note that I only wrote the bottom part of the page, everything else is
relating Rodrigo's experience, I believe.

Also, I updated a bit the wiki page to clarify things that were unclear
(I wrote the page in a rush, while waiting for some compilation to
finish). So some of the things you quoted have changed a bit ;-)

> I will comment point-to-point, hoping not to forget any. Quoted text is
> from the page.
>
> Let's start:
>
> > Note that some of the items here are simply caused by the fact that
> > openSUSE tries to be everything at the same time (distro for server,
> > desktop, etc.). It might make sense to have an install CD for server,
> > and another one for desktop.
>
> I like the full-featured DVD, which can do everything. And I think that
> having everything in one place just adds value and simplifies things
> both for the final users and for the maintainers. I mean: 1 medium
> allows you to do what you need to, and it's easier to keep under control
> its quality, at least in the general aspects (more people use it).

Having one full-featured DVD is great in some ways, I agree. But we also
already provide GNOME/KDE CD. We can improve things for them.

> > Also, there's something wrong with factory if we want people to use it
> > (especially developers). Ubuntu is doing a much better job here.
>
> > the installer is way too complex, with too many things to do, even with
> > the current simplification work going on in Factory.
>
> Yes, it does a lot of things and it takes longer than ubuntu, that's
> sure. But on the contrary it leaves you with a fully configured system,
> with the software selection you want, with network properly configured
> even if you have various interfaces, with a firewall properly set-up and
> with running printing services. So I vote for keeping it long.

Well, the new version of the installer doesn't take much longer than
Ubuntu. And again, it's a good step in the right direction. But we can
still improve :-) I'll file bugs/mail the yast list about this once I'll
be done with a new installation.

> > sudo should be used by default for a desktop install. It doesn't make
> > any sense to have the root account. There's an option "Use the same
> > password for root as the one used for the user" in the installer, but
> > it's not about sudo, I believe.
>
> Thanks for pointing this out. I was myself a sudo supporter, but someone
> with more technical experience than me explained to me that sudo is not
> the right way to follow for various security/conceptual reasons, and I
> agree. In the end, UNIX has root, and the users should learn to manage
> it. It doesn't add complexity if properly explained.

I disagree with the fact that people should have to learn about root. It
makes things more complex for an average desktop user. I know sudo is
not perfect (and PolicyKit will help solve the whole issue in a good
way), but it's good enough in the very short term for desktop users.
Anyway, that's a minor point and it's not the most important one.

> About the "Use the same password for root", I think it's plain wrong.
> Using the same password for root and the user reduces security.

Agree. But if we make it use sudo, it's a bit better :-)

> > in openSUSE, there are two radeon drivers: the old one and the
> > randr1.2-enabled one (new one), probably because the new one is still
> > in beta. Still, it doesn't make much sense to have both and the new one
> > works fine. Only this one should be used.
>
> I agree. If the one selected is really working in all the cases. If not,
> better two than a complaining user.
>
> > on startup, there's a 10 seconds delay in grub. Ubuntu only uses 1 or 2
> > seconds. It helps with the feeling of booting faster.
> > Ubuntu seems to boot faster. There might be less services, some
> > services are started after GDM is shown, etc. upstart might help too.
>
> Ten seconds in grub are a reasonable time to allow the user to select
> the operating system. And I think it's a basic requirement also for
> accessibility. Not all users are young, fast and without issues.

Hrm, if there's only one OS (in our case, openSUSE), the only other
choice is failsafe. 10 seconds is really long for this...

The a11y argument is good. I didn't think of it. 

> > Ubuntu uses brown as the color for the root window when starting GDM
> > (it's a gdm config option, I believe). It helps with the transition
> > from the brown gdm theme to the brown default background on the user
> > desktop. In openSUSE, we still use the greyish blue. It should be some
> > green.
>
> Hehe I love green, so I agree. But green is not much appreciated by
> various users, who switched back to blue or personalised backgrounds. 

I suggested green because the default gdm theme is green :-)

> > the menu bar is completely unusable in openSUSE: icons are too big
> > (distro patch), and there are tons of submenus (because we use the same
> > menu config as KDE?)
>
> I think it's related to the idea of offering a comparable choice of
> applications to the users on both DE.

Well, it's not about the applications, really. It's just the way the
menu is organized. I need to look at which .menu file is used to
understand why it's done this way.

> The real, not addressed, point is that the menu (main-menu) is not well
> implemented and it's probably one of the most buggy piece of software we
> have (read never solved leaks). I would love to see a kickoff-like
> implementation in place of the app-browser.

(I'm not using gnome-main-menu so I can't comment)

> > with only a very short look, I saw many
> > not-updated-to-the-latest-versions packages: yelp, totem, epiphany,
> > rhythmbox for example.
>
> This is SUSE policy. The released version is not upgraded until the next
> release. I usually agree with it, because it's thought to grant
> stability, but I think it was used in the wrong way sometime, not
> providing updates when features were lacking (for 10.3, read: anjuta,
> gedit with python support, ...).

The policy you're talking about is about the stable openSUSE. Using
factory, I have a more than one-year old yelp, for example.

> > Ubuntu is quite good at uploading new packages as soon as upstream
> > releases (at least, for GNOME). This is really great for a developer
> > like me.
>
> I agree. But I don't want to think to continuous updates to the released
> version ;-)
>
> > when I update openSUSE with "zypper dup", I have to download nearly 1GB
> > of packages. I seriously doubt that all of them were updated. It takes
> > me hours to get all updates... (slow DSL line)
>
> This is because dependency issues in the gnome side at opensuse are
> historical. One package usually brings half of gnome with itself. I
> don't know if it's necessary, but it's a common complaining we get.

I'll rephrase this one, since it's causing some confusion (as seen on
IRC): having to download something that big is really painful for
someone trying to follow the cutting edge, and help with the development
(of openSUSE or of upstream stuff). I understand why everything gets
rebuilt. I'm just stating one consequence of this: it is painful and
might make people not use factory.

> > the Ubuntu development version is nearly never broken. Factory is
> > always broken in some way (still usable, but either no network, or
> > uninstallable updates, or impossible to mount a usb key, etc.).
>
> Another historical issue. I always read/experienced these issues. 
>
> > I had to manually install the firmwares for my intel wireless card
> > when I don't have a gstreamer plugin, totem shows a dialog proposing me
> > to install it. It just opens a webpage. Ubuntu actually installs the
> > right package (and adds the repository if needed)
>
> Well, ubuntu violates a bunch of laws doing that :-)
> The intel firmware is provided on a non-OSS support and on the DVD, and
> should be installed by default. Online there's the non-OSS repository,
> which can be added at installation time. Keeping OSS and non-OSS
> separated is one of the long discussed key decision openSUSE made.

Actually, Ubuntu puts this in some multiverse repository which is about
non-free/non-legal-in-some-countries packages. That's a bit like
non-OSS, I guess. But the result still feels integrated, as if there
were only one repository.

> > I couldn't find all gstreamer plugins for factory... So no multimedia
> > experience for me.
>
> This depends on the fact that those plugins can't be hosted in -factory
> for the same legal reasons they're not provided with the distribution.
> Moreover they're packaged by non-Novell related guys.

Yes, I understand the problem. That's still an issue for users, so we
should try to provide something. It doesn't need to be hosted by Novell.

> > it's actually confusing to have so many repositories on
> > software.opensuse.org. If possible, everything should go to the main
> > factory repository. 
>
> I agree. But for codecs, drivers and others things, there are legal
> issues.

(agree)

> > there are tons of installed packages by default that don't make any
> > sense. Some graphical ones (gftp? skencil?), some non-graphical (tcsh,
> > ksh, zsh: do we really need all shells by default?)
>
> Well, except gftp (the only decent FTP client for GNOME), the rest
> should be removed. It's ages we get the complaint of suse having this
> issue.

I'd be interested to know why nautilus doesn't work fine as a ftp
client. That's a discussion for opensuse-gnome, though.

The packages I put on the wiki are just examples, and I'd sure that
checking the whole list of installed packages can give you others.

> > Ubuntu doesn't use a firewall by default because the default services
> > are secure and trusted (ssh, avahi, eg). With openSUSE, I have to
> > choose what I want to do with the firewall.
>
> Ubuntu does wrong on this side. Services are secure until you don't
> prove the contrary, and this happens often, considering that SSH is
> regularly patched, for example.
> A firewall is necessary imho, but its configuration should be easier.
> For example, while it's easy to open SSH port, it's a mess to have a
> properly working samba because of closed highports (hehe I know I said
> this too many times).

Keeping the firewall with an easier configuration would be a cool
solution, yes.

> > too many unneeded yast stuff. Users don't need to know about apparmor.
>
> Why not? A user can happily ignore that. Who does decide that the user
> doesn't need to know? That's not the UNIX philosophy. The user should
> LEARN to use his system, and the system should provide sensible
> defaults, of course (as a proper AppArmor configuration).

Keep in mind that I'm really talking about the average desktop users.
Such a user won't know what apparmor is and exposing too many things he
doesn't know will kill his user experience. He won't ignore it. He will
look at it, wonder what this is about, think he's doing something wrong,
etc. If we want to expose the apparmor features, it should be done in
some places where it makes sense, not in the first place where user
look.

> > A tool to config the mouse model in X shouldn't be needed. 
>
> The model of the mouse is selected in SaX, where the whole X is
> configured, and I think it's there because it might be necessary to set
> things in a fine way in certain cases. 

The right fix is of course to have a better X. I wonder how many people
do need to set things in a fine way. If it's only 2% of people, we can
let them install this instead of exposing this to everybody.

> > There are 8 >launchers in the Software category and I don't understand
> > what they >are... etc.
>
> Perfectly agree on this!
>
> > seahorse/gnome-keyring integration: in Ubuntu, when I ssh somewhere, a
> > dialog pops up. In openSUSE, I need to use the standard ssh-agent, it
> > seems.
>
> I agree on this one too :)
>
> > in the middle of the afternoon, I see beagle-build-index and the man db
> > rebuild happening. Lots of hard disk use. Middle of the afternoon is
> > when I use my computer. It should be done during the night if possible.
>
> Hmm. This looks like a cron-job issue. It's usually done around late
> evening here.

My original suggestion (during the night) is of course a bit stupid for
people working during the night. It should only happen when nothing else
is happening, or when the screensaver is active.


Again, all those notes were just quickly-written notes. But I'm happy to
see them discussed :-)

Vincent

-- 
Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés.


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