Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-edu (332 mails)
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Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Plans for a Linux distro
- From: Gary Stainburn <gary.stainburn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:57:36 +0000 (UTC)
- Message-id: <E16XiRX-00047X-00@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
On Monday 04 February 2002 11:28 am, Grainge, Derek wrote:
> Frank, the point I was making in a very deliberately unsubtle way was the
> one you rose to: your original and extensive reply dissed the opposition so
> hard in in such personal terms that it lost its effectiveness.
>
> Now, my reply was to one specific point regarding interface design, which
> was why I quoted you. The interface is extremely relevant. Look at
> http://www.iarchitect.com/mshame.htm
A very interesting and informative site, thanks.
>
> Regarding what should be taught in schools, I would certainly not teach C
> or C++ as a first language, points I made in another posting. Young kids
> want fast results otherwise they lose interest, so I think that at the age
> of 13 or so, starlogo
> http://el.www.media.mit.edu/groups/el/Projects/starlogo/ is much more
> accessible that any professional language. [It's a Java applet!]
>
Again, usefull thanks.
> This begs the question of what you teach older pupils. C and C++ allow
> you to make lots of mistakes. C++ has never really lived up to the object
> promise IMO. Up until recently I taught Pascal, as a procedural language
> with good error checking. Now I'm not so sure. I really don't want to
> head down the C route, but I do want something with more 'teeth' than Logo.
One language that Frank has mentioned in Perl. I personally think that this
would be an excelent first/second language. Also, it is one that would fit
both the serious command-line/structured/top-down design ideology, and feed
the quick-feedback eye-candy response fetish. In Perl, serious large scale
batch-mode programs and systems can be developed using full SSADM if
required, but because of it's ease-of-write and flexibility, it can be used,
for example, in it's CGI guise to produce/process HTML pages that look nice.
I have done both in anger at work here, and I've found it quite easy to start
my PFY on Perl and left him to it.
>
> The point being that this is education not training. I don't expect my
> students to step straight into jobs with software companies. I do want
> them to have a basic understanding of program structures, interfaces and
> algorithms which they can build on wherever they go next. Any employer
> who offers a job solely on programming expertise picked up at school is
> asking for trouble! [although I can think of a couple of particular cases
> straight off which counter that argument]
If anything can ben learned from this thread, it's that no one language
should be chosen to the exclusion of all other, although one or maybe two
should be concentrated on. However, I still say that VB should not be one of
them.
>
> From that perspective VB is no better or worse than many other languages.
> Not that I actually use it myself. But I have pupils who do....
WRONG!!!!!!! VB is worse than many other languages. VB in it's current state
is suited only to supplement Office, and is no more than a macro scripting
language. I have used it myself for that purpose although thankfully not for
a while, and I think using it as a teaching aid is a very bad idea.
Gary
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: 'Frank Shute' [mailto:frank@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: 03 February 2002 23:40
> > To: Grainge, Derek
> > Cc: Schools List
> > Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Plans for a Linux distro
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 02:40:42PM -0000, Grainge, Derek wrote:
> > > > What the program looks like is a total irrelevance,
> > >
> > > Let's reply in the same vein as your mail, Frank. Bollocks!
> >
> > I gave my reasons for thinking it was bollocks. Now how about you
> > having the courtesy to explain why my arguments are bollocks
> > whilst seemingly to agree with most of them?
> >
> > > You might agree or disagree with what's required at school,
> >
> > but there's no
> >
> > > need to piss on the argument. Especially when you're wrong.
> >
> > C++ should be taught at school should it? Wrong am I?
> >
> > Perhaps you should go and lie down for a while. You're obviously
> > getting a little bit over-excited.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
> > Boroughbridge.
> > Tel: 01423 323019
> > ---------
> > PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3
> > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
> >
> > http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/
> >
> >
> > No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.
> > -- William Blake
--
Gary Stainburn
This email does not contain private or confidential material as it
may be snooped on by interested government parties for unknown
and undisclosed purposes - Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, 2000
> Frank, the point I was making in a very deliberately unsubtle way was the
> one you rose to: your original and extensive reply dissed the opposition so
> hard in in such personal terms that it lost its effectiveness.
>
> Now, my reply was to one specific point regarding interface design, which
> was why I quoted you. The interface is extremely relevant. Look at
> http://www.iarchitect.com/mshame.htm
A very interesting and informative site, thanks.
>
> Regarding what should be taught in schools, I would certainly not teach C
> or C++ as a first language, points I made in another posting. Young kids
> want fast results otherwise they lose interest, so I think that at the age
> of 13 or so, starlogo
> http://el.www.media.mit.edu/groups/el/Projects/starlogo/ is much more
> accessible that any professional language. [It's a Java applet!]
>
Again, usefull thanks.
> This begs the question of what you teach older pupils. C and C++ allow
> you to make lots of mistakes. C++ has never really lived up to the object
> promise IMO. Up until recently I taught Pascal, as a procedural language
> with good error checking. Now I'm not so sure. I really don't want to
> head down the C route, but I do want something with more 'teeth' than Logo.
One language that Frank has mentioned in Perl. I personally think that this
would be an excelent first/second language. Also, it is one that would fit
both the serious command-line/structured/top-down design ideology, and feed
the quick-feedback eye-candy response fetish. In Perl, serious large scale
batch-mode programs and systems can be developed using full SSADM if
required, but because of it's ease-of-write and flexibility, it can be used,
for example, in it's CGI guise to produce/process HTML pages that look nice.
I have done both in anger at work here, and I've found it quite easy to start
my PFY on Perl and left him to it.
>
> The point being that this is education not training. I don't expect my
> students to step straight into jobs with software companies. I do want
> them to have a basic understanding of program structures, interfaces and
> algorithms which they can build on wherever they go next. Any employer
> who offers a job solely on programming expertise picked up at school is
> asking for trouble! [although I can think of a couple of particular cases
> straight off which counter that argument]
If anything can ben learned from this thread, it's that no one language
should be chosen to the exclusion of all other, although one or maybe two
should be concentrated on. However, I still say that VB should not be one of
them.
>
> From that perspective VB is no better or worse than many other languages.
> Not that I actually use it myself. But I have pupils who do....
WRONG!!!!!!! VB is worse than many other languages. VB in it's current state
is suited only to supplement Office, and is no more than a macro scripting
language. I have used it myself for that purpose although thankfully not for
a while, and I think using it as a teaching aid is a very bad idea.
Gary
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: 'Frank Shute' [mailto:frank@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: 03 February 2002 23:40
> > To: Grainge, Derek
> > Cc: Schools List
> > Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Plans for a Linux distro
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 02:40:42PM -0000, Grainge, Derek wrote:
> > > > What the program looks like is a total irrelevance,
> > >
> > > Let's reply in the same vein as your mail, Frank. Bollocks!
> >
> > I gave my reasons for thinking it was bollocks. Now how about you
> > having the courtesy to explain why my arguments are bollocks
> > whilst seemingly to agree with most of them?
> >
> > > You might agree or disagree with what's required at school,
> >
> > but there's no
> >
> > > need to piss on the argument. Especially when you're wrong.
> >
> > C++ should be taught at school should it? Wrong am I?
> >
> > Perhaps you should go and lie down for a while. You're obviously
> > getting a little bit over-excited.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
> > Boroughbridge.
> > Tel: 01423 323019
> > ---------
> > PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3
> > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
> >
> > http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/
> >
> >
> > No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.
> > -- William Blake
--
Gary Stainburn
This email does not contain private or confidential material as it
may be snooped on by interested government parties for unknown
and undisclosed purposes - Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, 2000
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