I think the last few posts have been indicative of the kinds of things we in the IT sector have to put up with *because* of the MCSE. Let me clarify what I mean: when I started in IT I worked in a local technical college for £9500 per year, for sometimes 60 hours a week. I liked the job, but the financial strain was too much Of course the network manager at the time was on £17500 a year, and only got the job because he had...guess what...an MCP! What annoyed me more than anything was the fact that he used Microsoft software on the LAN, not because it was better, but because it was part of his next MCP test. It was one big lab to him! As it happens, I had to leave; he is still there, and now has three MCPs and a CCNA--still earning the same amount. He didn't know how to build PCs, couldn't do even basic scripting, didn't know HTML, and had to get me to install Windows NT Workstation 4 for him to test it for wider use. I had to call MS support for him many times, and he wouldn't entertain Linux at all...he didn't know computers, he knew MS. I have considered an MCSE in the past just to get a job in IT, but I literally *hate* MS software I am an open source believer, and always will be. I would really love to take RHCE, but don't think I have the depth of knowledge to do it--otherwise I'd be in there slogging my guts out! There are alternatives to MCSEs, and yet businesses need that sort of knowledge because MS have built up a whole support industry around that certification. That's why I opted for my HND in Network Support. It covered Office, LANs, Data Comms, Hardware, project Management, Databases, Software Development etc., but I was allowed to use Linux as the OS and even Star Office for the office suite! I used MySQL for databases and Linux for Multi User components of the course....yet that wasn't enough for many employers!? I WILL NOT take an MCSE, MCP, MOUS or other MS certification. I love networking, IT, and the industry, but my goals eventually are on some form of Linux certification. Low pay in that case? Maybe. Self respect? Loads. I know LOTS of MCSEs and MCPs, even CCNAs...its just paper in the end..really...a piece of paper that says "you passed one exam". IT support is a lot more than one exam! MCSEs have weakened the market; not only is the exam deemed easy by its users, but its also seen as a fast track entry into IT and higher pay. Yet that has backfired: now MCSEs are wanted for less than £20000 a year whereas before they were averaging £30000pa. That's the way of the market--such skill, yet so much of them out there with it. It really can't be all that hard then. This only serves to reduce the level of computer knowledge needed to not only obtain one but also support an MS LAN. I have MCSE friends who can't tell the difference between a Northbridge and Southbridge chip inside the PC; they can't tell you what the little brown slots are next to a lot of AGP slots on newer motherboards; they can't fix CDROM drive belts that have come loose; they can't grasp SCSI or whatever...and these examples are real! Enough ranting....you get the picture. You guys just keep up the good work, keep learning, keep adapting and maybe even consider Linux certification--Linux is, after all, the future of IT!!! Paul