Hi Michael plus list, First off, apologies to Michael - my posting makes it look like I was making a personal attack on Fen Systems. Michael Brown wrote:
I have "done this job".
don't knock it on a TCO basis - you need schools techies to make this work and threatening them with cost based analysis will just make you and Linux lots of enemies.
Do I take it that you would prefer me not to publicise the TCO arguments in favour of using Linux managed services? If so, then I would be interested in how you could justify that position while remaining consistent with the ideals of "openness" and "free competition".
I have no problem with you publicising the arguments - but you should be aware that management and LEA's in particular would use this to remove undervalued and underpaid technicians. In addition M$, Apple et al etc have told us for years what was best for us and have been proven largely wrong - no wonder that we're a cynical bunch. Second example, I suggested three years ago that an LEA take a certain course of action and was disciplined for it - now they're implementing that very idea!
Schools need decent techies, after all are Fen systems going to travel 250 miles to fix a malfunctioning computer system?
Yes, if the school has purchased the £100 per month support policy that includes up to three site visits per annum to fix problems that cannot be resolved in any other way. Alternatively, schools can spend only £50 per month on support and pay for site visits only if they become necessary.
Point taken. But if the school had no technician would you be willing to come and clear a paper jam in a printer? If you're offering a full service then that, to me, includes such things as clearing paper jams, pushing cables back into sockets etc.
How many schools were represented last Monday?, three of the delegates were from one LEA. Businesses can't take the lead in this
Why not? Why should I be disqualified from taking an active role just because I choose to provide my services to several schools instead of one?
I think I gave the wrong impression - we're in the mess we're in at the moment because we listened to what businesses wanted and, because nobody, outside of open source, ever asks the people on the ground floor what they think - we get told what to do by business via the government etc and it's not working! Scott Adams is my hero on this! I don't think you should be disqualified - I happen to think you've got it just right and have a bright future, but no person/organisation can point the way forward alone, no person/organisation can be valued more highly than any other and every opinion is important. That's what we're about after all. I just think it's an interesting point and was really asking for information. After all, if my head asks me how many schools were represented and then how many businesses, and I reply more businesses than schools she's going to think that opensource is just another buck earner off the backs of the education system. If it's driven by education than they will take more notice. I would personally find it very hard to operate without IBM and Elonex - they never told me what I could and could'nt do with thier equipment when we bought it and, in the case of IBM, are really pushing open source, not only that but they provide excellent resources (IBM Redbooks) on line.
Should we really be 'teaching' pupils to use any single OS? surely it's better to use multiple OS's throughout the school, each OS in the place / subject to which it is best suited. Surely this way our children will learn what they need to know - transferable skills not packages.
You could argue that there is enough variety within Linux to provide an environment for learning transferable skills. StarOffice - KOffice - GNOME office bits, for example.
I agree, in principle. But until all the options have become available within open source then we need to use other systems as well, remember, ppupils leaving school for business will be able to take those skills with them, if they go to higher education then they will further those skills and again take them into business with them. They will be able to evaluate applications and solutions and propose the best way forward from an unbiased viewpoint.....
Are you absolutly convinced that Thin client is the best way - remember, no server, no network. What is needed in school networks is redundancy, no matter what environment / OS is being used. You don't get that with thin clients and that's why I don't use and would not consider them.
Multiple servers? We advise that 30 clients per server is a sensible upper limit, mainly on the basis of avoiding a single point of failure. With the money you save by using low-spec, thin-client hardware you can easily afford a couple of servers and the problem is solved.
I already run multiple servers - somethings run better on high powered equipment, some run better on low powered equipment. I don't trust thin clients - maybe it's a personal thing but I still want to work when the servers (plural) are down, or when the hub/switch/etc is down and so will teachers. It's a lot more work to use fat clients (but that's mainly the fault of the current widely used OS) than thin but the end result is, I think, better.
Anyway, that's enough for now (I've had my little rant so i'll sit back and wait for the flames!) - I apologise in advance is if unknowingly insulted anybody but I do feel that we need to operate om a much broader base than is currently being discussed. I've got more to say but I think it's better to stop here....
I would have thought that the current base of both users (schools), suppliers and independent advocates is about as broad as you are going to get.
By base I meant the area of operation of OSE. So far we've mainly talked about hosting and websites and domain names. We need to consider open source as a whole - biology is very good at describing individual organisims but ecology is a far better way of dealing with entire ecosystems. Thus OSIE or OSE, must consider all aspects of it's potential impact upon the educational society, hardware, software and training. We must also be able to demonstrate the use of such applications within appropriate educational contexts. Databases, for example, have a wider application than school management issues. Can we use a database in science? if so how? Why? In what way will it benefit the teaching and learning environment? It's not the users, schools and suppliers that need broadening but the way in which open source applications and thier benefits are discussed and applied. It's no good giving teachers the tools without giving them the ability to use them.
Again Michael - if any company deserves to succeed in this area then Fen systems does and I wish you all the best. But if it comes down to a decision between me keeping my job interesting, challenging and varied, (or for that matter keeping it at all) and your company installing a remotely managed system then I'm afraid your company is going to lose out. Note - this applies to any managed NGFL system. As I said, if I wanted to work like that then I'd get a job with EDS. In any environment other than open source we wouldn't be having this debate anyway, we'd have been told what to do, to get on with and not to ask questions - Free, as in speech, not as in beer after all. Alan
Michael Brown Fen Systems Ltd.
-- ----------------------------------------------------- Alan Harris Network Manager Bryngwyn School Tel : 01554 750661 Fax : 01554 758255 E-mail: alanh@bryngwyn.carmarthen.sch ----------------------------------------------------- Notes: 1. The contents of this email may be snooped on by interested government parties for unknown purposes! Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, 2000. 2. The opinions expressed in this email are personal and may not be shared by Bryngwyn School. -----------------------------------------------------