Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-edu (292 mails)
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Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Thinking Ahead.... A School Technicians/ Network Managers point of view
- From: "Mark Evans" <mpe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:36:06 +0000 (UTC)
- Message-id: <20010316160208.7514.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Michael Brown wrote:
> >
> > I have "done this job".
> >
> > > don't knock it on a TCO basis - you need schools techies to make this
> > > work and threatening them with cost based analysis will just make you
> > > and Linux lots of enemies.
> >
> > Do I take it that you would prefer me not to publicise the TCO arguments
> > in favour of using Linux managed services? If so, then I would be
> > interested in how you could justify that position while remaining
> > consistent with the ideals of "openness" and "free competition".
> >
> I have no problem with you publicising the arguments - but you should be
> aware that management and LEA's in particular would use this to remove
> undervalued and underpaid technicians. In addition M$, Apple et al etc
> have told us for years what was best for us and have been proven largely
Have been? IME they still are.
> wrong - no wonder that we're a cynical bunch. Second example, I
> suggested three years ago that an LEA take a certain course of action
> and was disciplined for it - now they're implementing that very idea!
Do I get more points for managing to upset people at
a Regional Broadband Consortia. (Effectivly taking
on their claim to be "standards compliant" and
asking "which standards". Never even got to the
point of saying "this is a tree, not a grid".)
>
> > > Schools need decent techies, after all are Fen systems going to travel
> > > 250 miles to fix a malfunctioning computer system?
> >
> > Yes, if the school has purchased the £100 per month support policy that
> > includes up to three site visits per annum to fix problems that cannot be
> > resolved in any other way. Alternatively, schools can spend only £50 per
> > month on support and pay for site visits only if they become necessary.
> >
> Point taken. But if the school had no technician would you be willing to
> come and clear a paper jam in a printer? If you're offering a full
> service then that, to me, includes such things as clearing paper jams,
> pushing cables back into sockets etc.
The point is that it isn't really an either/or situation,
but there are people likely to see it that way.
> > > How many schools were represented last Monday?, three of the delegates
> > > were from one LEA. Businesses can't take the lead in this
> >
> > Why not? Why should I be disqualified from taking an active role just
> > because I choose to provide my services to several schools instead of
> > one?
> >
> I think I gave the wrong impression - we're in the mess we're in at the
> moment because we listened to what businesses wanted and, because
> nobody, outside of open source, ever asks the people on the ground floor
With the result that when the people on the "ground floor"
are given a voice the first things to come out are
their greviences, concerned and even cynisism.
> what they think - we get told what to do by business via the government
> etc and it's not working! Scott Adams is my hero on this! I don't think
> you should be disqualified - I happen to think you've got it just right
> and have a bright future, but no person/organisation can point the way
> forward alone, no person/organisation can be valued more highly than any
> other and every opinion is important. That's what we're about after all.
> I just think it's an interesting point and was really asking for
> information. After all, if my head asks me how many schools were
> represented and then how many businesses, and I reply more businesses
> than schools she's going to think that opensource is just another buck
> earner off the backs of the education system. If it's driven by
> education than they will take more notice. I would personally find it
Interesting how LEA reps don't feature here, even with
Roger's comment at the meeting...
> very hard to operate without IBM and Elonex - they never told me what I
> could and could'nt do with thier equipment when we bought it and, in the
> case of IBM, are really pushing open source, not only that but they
> provide excellent resources (IBM Redbooks) on line.
>
> >
> > Multiple servers? We advise that 30 clients per server is a sensible
> > upper limit, mainly on the basis of avoiding a single point of failure.
> > With the money you save by using low-spec, thin-client hardware you can
> > easily afford a couple of servers and the problem is solved.
> >
> I already run multiple servers - somethings run better on high powered
> equipment, some run better on low powered equipment. I don't trust thin
> clients - maybe it's a personal thing but I still want to work when the
> servers (plural) are down, or when the hub/switch/etc is down and so
> will teachers. It's a lot more work to use fat clients (but that's
> mainly the fault of the current widely used OS) than thin but the end
The problem is a lot of things appear to have
been coloured by Windows and measured
according to Windows based standards. Even
where those standards are meaningless.
> result is, I think, better.
>
> > > Anyway, that's enough for now (I've had my little rant so i'll sit
> > > back and wait for the flames!) - I apologise in advance is if
> > > unknowingly insulted anybody but I do feel that we need to operate om
> > > a much broader base than is currently being discussed. I've got more
> > > to say but I think it's better to stop here....
> >
> > I would have thought that the current base of both users (schools),
> > suppliers and independent advocates is about as broad as you are going to
> > get.
> >
> By base I meant the area of operation of OSE. So far we've mainly talked
> about hosting and websites and domain names. We need to consider open
> source as a whole - biology is very good at describing individual
> organisims but ecology is a far better way of dealing with entire
> ecosystems. Thus OSIE or OSE, must consider all aspects of it's
> potential impact upon the educational society, hardware, software and
> training. We must also be able to demonstrate the use of such
> applications within appropriate educational contexts. Databases, for
> example, have a wider application than school management issues. Can we
Also it's important to be able to get existing data
into a database.
> use a database in science? if so how? Why? In what way will it benefit
> the teaching and learning environment? It's not the users, schools and
> suppliers that need broadening but the way in which open source
> applications and thier benefits are discussed and applied. It's no good
> giving teachers the tools without giving them the ability to use them.
Especially if there may be new things which can be
done with it...
> >
> Again Michael - if any company deserves to succeed in this area then Fen
> systems does and I wish you all the best. But if it comes down to a
> decision between me keeping my job interesting, challenging and varied,
> (or for that matter keeping it at all) and your company installing a
> remotely managed system then I'm afraid your company is going to lose
> out. Note - this applies to any managed NGFL system. As I said, if I
> wanted to work like that then I'd get a job with EDS.
I'm must to some extent agree with Alan,
especially since dealing with SWGFL
has left a very nasty taste in my mouth.
--
Mark Evans
St. Peter's CofE High School
Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109
Fax: +44 1392 204763
> >
> > I have "done this job".
> >
> > > don't knock it on a TCO basis - you need schools techies to make this
> > > work and threatening them with cost based analysis will just make you
> > > and Linux lots of enemies.
> >
> > Do I take it that you would prefer me not to publicise the TCO arguments
> > in favour of using Linux managed services? If so, then I would be
> > interested in how you could justify that position while remaining
> > consistent with the ideals of "openness" and "free competition".
> >
> I have no problem with you publicising the arguments - but you should be
> aware that management and LEA's in particular would use this to remove
> undervalued and underpaid technicians. In addition M$, Apple et al etc
> have told us for years what was best for us and have been proven largely
Have been? IME they still are.
> wrong - no wonder that we're a cynical bunch. Second example, I
> suggested three years ago that an LEA take a certain course of action
> and was disciplined for it - now they're implementing that very idea!
Do I get more points for managing to upset people at
a Regional Broadband Consortia. (Effectivly taking
on their claim to be "standards compliant" and
asking "which standards". Never even got to the
point of saying "this is a tree, not a grid".)
>
> > > Schools need decent techies, after all are Fen systems going to travel
> > > 250 miles to fix a malfunctioning computer system?
> >
> > Yes, if the school has purchased the £100 per month support policy that
> > includes up to three site visits per annum to fix problems that cannot be
> > resolved in any other way. Alternatively, schools can spend only £50 per
> > month on support and pay for site visits only if they become necessary.
> >
> Point taken. But if the school had no technician would you be willing to
> come and clear a paper jam in a printer? If you're offering a full
> service then that, to me, includes such things as clearing paper jams,
> pushing cables back into sockets etc.
The point is that it isn't really an either/or situation,
but there are people likely to see it that way.
> > > How many schools were represented last Monday?, three of the delegates
> > > were from one LEA. Businesses can't take the lead in this
> >
> > Why not? Why should I be disqualified from taking an active role just
> > because I choose to provide my services to several schools instead of
> > one?
> >
> I think I gave the wrong impression - we're in the mess we're in at the
> moment because we listened to what businesses wanted and, because
> nobody, outside of open source, ever asks the people on the ground floor
With the result that when the people on the "ground floor"
are given a voice the first things to come out are
their greviences, concerned and even cynisism.
> what they think - we get told what to do by business via the government
> etc and it's not working! Scott Adams is my hero on this! I don't think
> you should be disqualified - I happen to think you've got it just right
> and have a bright future, but no person/organisation can point the way
> forward alone, no person/organisation can be valued more highly than any
> other and every opinion is important. That's what we're about after all.
> I just think it's an interesting point and was really asking for
> information. After all, if my head asks me how many schools were
> represented and then how many businesses, and I reply more businesses
> than schools she's going to think that opensource is just another buck
> earner off the backs of the education system. If it's driven by
> education than they will take more notice. I would personally find it
Interesting how LEA reps don't feature here, even with
Roger's comment at the meeting...
> very hard to operate without IBM and Elonex - they never told me what I
> could and could'nt do with thier equipment when we bought it and, in the
> case of IBM, are really pushing open source, not only that but they
> provide excellent resources (IBM Redbooks) on line.
>
> >
> > Multiple servers? We advise that 30 clients per server is a sensible
> > upper limit, mainly on the basis of avoiding a single point of failure.
> > With the money you save by using low-spec, thin-client hardware you can
> > easily afford a couple of servers and the problem is solved.
> >
> I already run multiple servers - somethings run better on high powered
> equipment, some run better on low powered equipment. I don't trust thin
> clients - maybe it's a personal thing but I still want to work when the
> servers (plural) are down, or when the hub/switch/etc is down and so
> will teachers. It's a lot more work to use fat clients (but that's
> mainly the fault of the current widely used OS) than thin but the end
The problem is a lot of things appear to have
been coloured by Windows and measured
according to Windows based standards. Even
where those standards are meaningless.
> result is, I think, better.
>
> > > Anyway, that's enough for now (I've had my little rant so i'll sit
> > > back and wait for the flames!) - I apologise in advance is if
> > > unknowingly insulted anybody but I do feel that we need to operate om
> > > a much broader base than is currently being discussed. I've got more
> > > to say but I think it's better to stop here....
> >
> > I would have thought that the current base of both users (schools),
> > suppliers and independent advocates is about as broad as you are going to
> > get.
> >
> By base I meant the area of operation of OSE. So far we've mainly talked
> about hosting and websites and domain names. We need to consider open
> source as a whole - biology is very good at describing individual
> organisims but ecology is a far better way of dealing with entire
> ecosystems. Thus OSIE or OSE, must consider all aspects of it's
> potential impact upon the educational society, hardware, software and
> training. We must also be able to demonstrate the use of such
> applications within appropriate educational contexts. Databases, for
> example, have a wider application than school management issues. Can we
Also it's important to be able to get existing data
into a database.
> use a database in science? if so how? Why? In what way will it benefit
> the teaching and learning environment? It's not the users, schools and
> suppliers that need broadening but the way in which open source
> applications and thier benefits are discussed and applied. It's no good
> giving teachers the tools without giving them the ability to use them.
Especially if there may be new things which can be
done with it...
> >
> Again Michael - if any company deserves to succeed in this area then Fen
> systems does and I wish you all the best. But if it comes down to a
> decision between me keeping my job interesting, challenging and varied,
> (or for that matter keeping it at all) and your company installing a
> remotely managed system then I'm afraid your company is going to lose
> out. Note - this applies to any managed NGFL system. As I said, if I
> wanted to work like that then I'd get a job with EDS.
I'm must to some extent agree with Alan,
especially since dealing with SWGFL
has left a very nasty taste in my mouth.
--
Mark Evans
St. Peter's CofE High School
Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109
Fax: +44 1392 204763
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