Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-bugs (16652 mails)
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[Bug 439018] g-p-m suspends desktop (and without any warning/ indication to the user)
- From: bugzilla_noreply@xxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:57:54 -0600 (MDT)
- Message-id: <20081102005754.5190ECC7D0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User robin.listas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c38
--- Comment #38 from Carlos Robinson <robin.listas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 2008-11-01
18:57:49 MDT ---
(In reply to comment #28 from Holger Macht)
Of course I listen, but I'm afraid you don't.
I'm all in favour of energy savings. I have been using Energy Star features
since before SuSE existed. I was thrilled when SuSE suddenly was able to
hibernate my machine, and I have used it since then several times a day, even
before the desktop was able to trigger it. I always recommend people to try
hibernation: it is faster than booting, saves effort in starting all apps on
the desktop, and saves energy.
But I'm also against forcing the user, specially when it is dangerous for him.
The original reporter said:
and you said:
Thus, the excuse for this default configuration is to be compliant with Energy
Star - but software alone can not be compliant. To be compliant you have to
pass a certification and complete tests, for the combination of hardware and
software. This is not possible for openSUSE, so the above is just an excuse.
My points are:
a) You must remember that such a default is dangerous before the machine is
tested. Some machines crash when suspending or hibernating; some will "simply"
loose data. This will cause users to be very pissed against Novell.
b) It is a mistake, can cause damage and lost data, to configure a user's
desktop, without the owner prior knowledge and permission, to suspend or
hibernate. Before the user of a machine, or the vendor/supplier of the software
(Novell), is allowed to configure autosuspend/autohibernate, the owner of the
machine has to explicitly allow this configuration change.
c) Before permitting a desktop to allow suspend/hibernate, during installation
and later in YaST, the admin must be asked whether to permit it, or not permit
it, or even force it. He is the person that knows whether the machine
withstands the cycle, and what's the intended usage of the machine. For
example, a server, even a home server, must never suspend or hibernate
automatically.
d) If the real intend is to conserve energy, then KDE must have this behaviour
too, and the CLI, and the entire machine, even more when nobody is logged in.
Not only when somebody is logged in GNome. Or is it your intend that openSUSE
users act as guinea pigs for SLED, which uses gnome as default, and thus
"forgive" kde users?
e) You have to test first how services like apache, samba, etc, behave. The
configuration change makes my machine hibernate, meaning that all network
connections are killed.
f) You also have to test how all possible configurations with external devices
(usb, firewire, etc) survive: printers (what about cups printing a long job!),
scanners (I bet you will find that xsane has to be restarted), disk devices
(regardless of how they are mounted, not only mounted via gnome (they can be
mounted by another user)), etc.
g) Consider that the complains you are seeing are just a sample of what you
will see once normal users find out. Till now only betatesters are aware, and
we are more forgiving and prepared than most users.
Or perhaps you do know, and thus you test first on gnome.
Kde users are a rougher crowd, already pissed because of
the KDE 4 "situation" >:-P
My propossal is:
a) That you (Novell) remove this default setting this time. Ie, delay it.
b) Create a YaST module to configure the behaviour of the entire system:
1) prohibit/allow suspend/hibernation system wide
2) define default behaviour system wide.
3) prohibit/allow users to change the default behaviour.
c) Obviously, events must be logged.
I'm afraid you (Novell) will discard my proposal without consideration, and
that my valuable time was wasted. Therefore, then at least:
a) warn root during installation.
b) provide at least a script to disable the default configuration
of autosuspend/hibernate.
c) warn the users on the welcome window, that is, way before the actual act.
d) pop a window in advance, and log the event.
Thank you!
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User robin.listas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c38
--- Comment #38 from Carlos Robinson <robin.listas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 2008-11-01
18:57:49 MDT ---
(In reply to comment #28 from Holger Macht)
(In reply to comment #26 from Carlos Robinson)
That spec is a requirement for machines, not software alone. You can not
certify openSUSE for compliance in any case, even if included on any
machine;
and if bundled, only SLES or SLE is certifiable.
I never ever said that any of our distributions is Energy Star compliant. I
also already stated somewhere else (where you are also the reporter of the
bug)
that we cannot do this because of the hardware dependencies. Please listen.
Of course I listen, but I'm afraid you don't.
I'm all in favour of energy savings. I have been using Energy Star features
since before SuSE existed. I was thrilled when SuSE suddenly was able to
hibernate my machine, and I have used it since then several times a day, even
before the desktop was able to trigger it. I always recommend people to try
hibernation: it is faster than booting, saves effort in starting all apps on
the desktop, and saves energy.
But I'm also against forcing the user, specially when it is dangerous for him.
The original reporter said:
# Enable Energy Star compliant default configuration
and you said:
Yes, it is a requirement.
Thus, the excuse for this default configuration is to be compliant with Energy
Star - but software alone can not be compliant. To be compliant you have to
pass a certification and complete tests, for the combination of hardware and
software. This is not possible for openSUSE, so the above is just an excuse.
My points are:
a) You must remember that such a default is dangerous before the machine is
tested. Some machines crash when suspending or hibernating; some will "simply"
loose data. This will cause users to be very pissed against Novell.
b) It is a mistake, can cause damage and lost data, to configure a user's
desktop, without the owner prior knowledge and permission, to suspend or
hibernate. Before the user of a machine, or the vendor/supplier of the software
(Novell), is allowed to configure autosuspend/autohibernate, the owner of the
machine has to explicitly allow this configuration change.
c) Before permitting a desktop to allow suspend/hibernate, during installation
and later in YaST, the admin must be asked whether to permit it, or not permit
it, or even force it. He is the person that knows whether the machine
withstands the cycle, and what's the intended usage of the machine. For
example, a server, even a home server, must never suspend or hibernate
automatically.
d) If the real intend is to conserve energy, then KDE must have this behaviour
too, and the CLI, and the entire machine, even more when nobody is logged in.
Not only when somebody is logged in GNome. Or is it your intend that openSUSE
users act as guinea pigs for SLED, which uses gnome as default, and thus
"forgive" kde users?
e) You have to test first how services like apache, samba, etc, behave. The
configuration change makes my machine hibernate, meaning that all network
connections are killed.
f) You also have to test how all possible configurations with external devices
(usb, firewire, etc) survive: printers (what about cups printing a long job!),
scanners (I bet you will find that xsane has to be restarted), disk devices
(regardless of how they are mounted, not only mounted via gnome (they can be
mounted by another user)), etc.
g) Consider that the complains you are seeing are just a sample of what you
will see once normal users find out. Till now only betatesters are aware, and
we are more forgiving and prepared than most users.
Or perhaps you do know, and thus you test first on gnome.
Kde users are a rougher crowd, already pissed because of
the KDE 4 "situation" >:-P
My propossal is:
a) That you (Novell) remove this default setting this time. Ie, delay it.
b) Create a YaST module to configure the behaviour of the entire system:
1) prohibit/allow suspend/hibernation system wide
2) define default behaviour system wide.
3) prohibit/allow users to change the default behaviour.
c) Obviously, events must be logged.
I'm afraid you (Novell) will discard my proposal without consideration, and
that my valuable time was wasted. Therefore, then at least:
a) warn root during installation.
b) provide at least a script to disable the default configuration
of autosuspend/hibernate.
c) warn the users on the welcome window, that is, way before the actual act.
d) pop a window in advance, and log the event.
Thank you!
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are on the CC list for the bug.
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