[yast-devel] Re: [opensuse-factory] Accessible installer
Let's move to yast-devel. Dňa Wednesday 28 November 2007 04:23:55 Hans Petter Jansson ste napísal:
The GNOME team set up a wiki page for 11.0 ideas. One of the requests is for accessibility options to be available in the YaST installer, in particular:
* Screen magnifier - shows a magnified version of the portion of the screen you're pointing at.
* Screen reader - reads the labels and input text out loud.
* Braille output - provides tactile display of labels and input text via a special device.
In GNOME, we use Orca to accomplish this, together with the at-spi infrastructure. It is a Python app. I don't know what Qt/KDE uses, but I imagine something similar.
So I have some questions for the YaST/installer guys:
* What accessibility technologies are available in the installer today, and how are they configured?
AFAIK, we have support for visually impaired people: - linuxrc can be run in linemode to allow screen readers - yast2 ncurses interface has high contrast color scheme available - there is support for braille peripherials
* If we're missing accessibility functionality, how feasible would it be to implement it for 11.0?
Depends on the technology. One constraint I see right away is the size of of inst-sys, we would need to do some magic there to keep it reasonably sized. First, we would need to know exactly what we want to support. The 3 points above? Stano
* Given that the installer is a Qt app, what technologies could we use?
Also see
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Qua, 2007-11-28 às 09:21 +0100, Stanislav Visnovsky escreveu:
In GNOME, we use Orca to accomplish this, together with the at-spi infrastructure. It is a Python app. I don't know what Qt/KDE uses, but I imagine something similar.
You have yast-gtk then. Qt4 also plugs to at-spi, and surely yast-qt guys are already considering a port to Qt4 as KDE4 approaches final release (?). One potential issue with yast-qt is that it outsources its layout distribution to an engine at libyui. So, it might not work well with some of those tools. Or I could be wrong. Its possible that it can make use of the absolute coordinates, as they do for focus. Cheers, Ricardo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 09:21 +0100, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
Let's move to yast-devel.
Dňa Wednesday 28 November 2007 04:23:55 Hans Petter Jansson ste napísal:
The GNOME team set up a wiki page for 11.0 ideas. One of the requests is for accessibility options to be available in the YaST installer, in particular:
* Screen magnifier - shows a magnified version of the portion of the screen you're pointing at.
* Screen reader - reads the labels and input text out loud.
* Braille output - provides tactile display of labels and input text via a special device.
In GNOME, we use Orca to accomplish this, together with the at-spi infrastructure. It is a Python app. I don't know what Qt/KDE uses, but I imagine something similar.
So I have some questions for the YaST/installer guys:
* What accessibility technologies are available in the installer today, and how are they configured?
AFAIK, we have support for visually impaired people: - linuxrc can be run in linemode to allow screen readers - yast2 ncurses interface has high contrast color scheme available - there is support for braille peripherials
* If we're missing accessibility functionality, how feasible would it be to implement it for 11.0?
Depends on the technology. One constraint I see right away is the size of of inst-sys, we would need to do some magic there to keep it reasonably sized.
First, we would need to know exactly what we want to support. The 3 points above?
Stano
If I can jump in here. the above 3 are representative of real-life examples we have encountered recently. - One person identified needing sound output, and thus required someone else to install openSuse before he could use it. He is in this business professionally. - Myself, I need some level of magnification. I can get by with what I can see today, but as my vision worsens... I may not be able to provide technical support for my customers without magnification built into the installer. Personally, with all the technology today, I don't want the computer to be the one thing that keeps me from continuing to work. :-) - In the opensuse general mailing list, there was a newcomer who stated he used a braille terminal and was having difficulty installing openSuse. He disappeared after that one night, so I don't know whether he was successful or not. My guess is, since we haven't heard from him, probably not. Unfortunately, I don't know braille nor do I own a braille terminal, so it isn't something I can test out for functionality. In fact, AFAICT, building these features into the installer would probably make Yast the most accessible installer the world has ever seen. If a magnifier is not that simple to integrate (I don't know my way around coding), perhaps some built in hot key to expand text? Like CTRL +Arrow-up key expands fonts, and CTRL+Arrow-dn key shrinks fonts. There's enough white space in many of the installer pages to accommodate text expansion. Although, I still think a mouse-based magnifier is a more elegant solution. I should emphasize that magnification isn't just an accessibility need. Sometimes normal-sighted people need magnification as well. I've seen on some monitors, the installer fonts are sooo tiny that a hot-key magnification would be greatly appreciated. Just wanted to offer you guys some perspective here.. :) -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Dobrý večer, Bryen wrote (shortened):
- One person identified needing sound output, and thus required someone else to install openSuse before he could use it. He is in this business professionally.
IMHO there is the possibility to use a hardware synthesizer during the installation - but I'm not sure which devices are supported and how good this is supported.
- In the opensuse general mailing list, there was a newcomer who stated he used a braille terminal and was having difficulty installing openSuse. He disappeared after that one night, so I don't know whether he was successful or not. My guess is, since we haven't heard from him, probably not. Unfortunately, I don't know braille nor do I own a braille terminal, so it isn't something I can test out for functionality.
The braille display is supported since SuSE Linux 7.0 and there also is a nice community if you have problems. Maybe the user which you talk about didn't come back to the general list because he found the english blinux mailinglist. If thats the case then we need to do some advertising. Here you can find the archive of the english blinux mailinglist: http://lists4.opensuse.org/blinux/ I will add the blinux info to http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate/Mailinglists
In fact, AFAICT, building these features into the installer would probably make Yast the most accessible installer the world has ever seen.
It is already :) No ... I'm not biased :) Thanks for your feedback. Greetings, Marco -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 21:48 +0100, Marco Michna wrote:
Dobrý večer,
Bryen wrote (shortened):
- One person identified needing sound output, and thus required someone else to install openSuse before he could use it. He is in this business professionally.
IMHO there is the possibility to use a hardware synthesizer during the installation - but I'm not sure which devices are supported and how good this is supported.
- In the opensuse general mailing list, there was a newcomer who stated he used a braille terminal and was having difficulty installing openSuse. He disappeared after that one night, so I don't know whether he was successful or not. My guess is, since we haven't heard from him, probably not. Unfortunately, I don't know braille nor do I own a braille terminal, so it isn't something I can test out for functionality.
The braille display is supported since SuSE Linux 7.0 and there also is a nice community if you have problems. Maybe the user which you talk about didn't come back to the general list because he found the english blinux mailinglist. If thats the case then we need to do some advertising.
Here you can find the archive of the english blinux mailinglist:
Very interesting. Thanks for pointing me out to this. I'm trying to read up on blinux now and what exactly it is/means. But it looks like that mailing list has been very quiet for some time. Although, I'm not certain I agree with a separate mailing list for blind users. Nor should it be for very specific types of users. For example, I am both blind AND deaf. But many of the tools that I use to make it easier are also tools that you may use in everyday life. There are too many variations of impairment to allow for such specific silos of mailing lists. The general support mailing list is a more accurate place and that's where I keep my eye out for such people looking for assistance that I can offer. Enlighten me if you know anything more about blinux. Is it a collection of tools or a separate installation CD? If it is a separate os installation, is it usable by both people with disabilities and people without disabilities?
I will add the blinux info to http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate/Mailinglists
In fact, AFAICT, building these features into the installer would probably make Yast the most accessible installer the world has ever seen.
It is already :) No ... I'm not biased :)
I wouldn't consider you biased. And if you feel that it is a highly accessible installer, then we need to work on documenting it so more people are aware. I'm not interested in re-inventing the wheel if such comprehensive and easily-used tools are already in existence and integrated. If there is any documentation in existence that you may already be aware of, please point me to it so I can review it and test things out.
Thanks for your feedback.
And I appreciate the information you have given me. Thank you very much!
Greetings, Marco -- ---Bryen---
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Continuing in this discussion. there's a nice little magnifier I came across last week. Simple, lightweight, doesn't rely on at-spi library. http://magnifier.sourceforge.net/ Could something like this be integrated into Yast Installer? Mind you, I'm no coder or developer and have high esteem for you guys. At this point, you're probably going to smack me across the head for not realizing how complicated my suggestion actually might be. :-) For your convenience, I've pasted the output of ldd, since I don't know if any of these libraries are available when running Yast installer. linux-gate.so.1 => (0xffffe000) libX11.so.6 => /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 (0xb7e6f000) libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 (0xb7e56000) libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0 (0xb7ae5000) libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 (0xb7a61000) libgobject-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0 (0xb7a26000) libglib-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0 (0xb7985000) libgthread-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgthread-2.0.so.0 (0xb797f000) libgmodule-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgmodule-2.0.so.0 (0xb797a000) libpango-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpango-1.0.so.0 (0xb793e000) libpthread.so.0 => /lib/libpthread.so.0 (0xb7927000) libatk-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libatk-1.0.so.0 (0xb790c000) libdl.so.2 => /lib/libdl.so.2 (0xb7908000) libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0xb77d4000) libxcb-xlib.so.0 => /usr/lib/libxcb-xlib.so.0 (0xb77d1000) libxcb.so.1 => /usr/lib/libxcb.so.1 (0xb77b8000) libm.so.6 => /lib/libm.so.6 (0xb7793000) libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 (0xb7789000) libXcomposite.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXcomposite.so.1 (0xb7784000) libXdamage.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXdamage.so.1 (0xb7780000) libXfixes.so.3 => /usr/lib/libXfixes.so.3 (0xb777a000) libcairo.so.2 => /usr/lib/libcairo.so.2 (0xb76fc000) libfontconfig.so.1 => /usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1 (0xb76d0000) libXext.so.6 => /usr/lib/libXext.so.6 (0xb76c1000) libXrender.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXrender.so.1 (0xb76b7000) libXinerama.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXinerama.so.1 (0xb76b3000) libXi.so.6 => /usr/lib/libXi.so.6 (0xb76aa000) libXrandr.so.2 => /usr/lib/libXrandr.so.2 (0xb76a3000) libXcursor.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXcursor.so.1 (0xb7699000) libpcre.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpcre.so.0 (0xb7670000) librt.so.1 => /lib/librt.so.1 (0xb7667000) /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0xb7fb1000) libXau.so.6 => /usr/lib/libXau.so.6 (0xb7663000) libpangoft2-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpangoft2-1.0.so.0 (0xb7635000) libfreetype.so.6 => /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 (0xb75c6000) libz.so.1 => /lib/libz.so.1 (0xb75b2000) libglitz.so.1 => /usr/lib/libglitz.so.1 (0xb758b000) libpng12.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpng12.so.0 (0xb7566000) libxcb-render-util.so.0 => /usr/lib/libxcb-render-util.so.0 (0xb7561000) libxcb-render.so.0 => /usr/lib/libxcb-render.so.0 (0xb7559000) libexpat.so.1 => /lib/libexpat.so.1 (0xb7537000) -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
Dňa Wednesday 05 December 2007 22:08:19 Bryen ste napísal:
Continuing in this discussion. there's a nice little magnifier I came across last week. Simple, lightweight, doesn't rely on at-spi library. http://magnifier.sourceforge.net/
Could something like this be integrated into Yast Installer? Mind you, I'm no coder or developer and have high esteem for you guys. At this point, you're probably going to smack me across the head for not realizing how complicated my suggestion actually might be. :-)
For your convenience, I've pasted the output of ldd, since I don't know if any of these libraries are available when running Yast installer.
I don't think you have e.g. pango available during installation. Stano
linux-gate.so.1 => (0xffffe000) libX11.so.6 => /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 (0xb7e6f000) libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 (0xb7e56000) libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0 (0xb7ae5000) libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 (0xb7a61000) libgobject-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0 (0xb7a26000) libglib-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0 (0xb7985000) libgthread-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgthread-2.0.so.0 (0xb797f000) libgmodule-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgmodule-2.0.so.0 (0xb797a000) libpango-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpango-1.0.so.0 (0xb793e000) libpthread.so.0 => /lib/libpthread.so.0 (0xb7927000) libatk-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libatk-1.0.so.0 (0xb790c000) libdl.so.2 => /lib/libdl.so.2 (0xb7908000) libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0xb77d4000) libxcb-xlib.so.0 => /usr/lib/libxcb-xlib.so.0 (0xb77d1000) libxcb.so.1 => /usr/lib/libxcb.so.1 (0xb77b8000) libm.so.6 => /lib/libm.so.6 (0xb7793000) libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 (0xb7789000) libXcomposite.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXcomposite.so.1 (0xb7784000) libXdamage.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXdamage.so.1 (0xb7780000) libXfixes.so.3 => /usr/lib/libXfixes.so.3 (0xb777a000) libcairo.so.2 => /usr/lib/libcairo.so.2 (0xb76fc000) libfontconfig.so.1 => /usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1 (0xb76d0000) libXext.so.6 => /usr/lib/libXext.so.6 (0xb76c1000) libXrender.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXrender.so.1 (0xb76b7000) libXinerama.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXinerama.so.1 (0xb76b3000) libXi.so.6 => /usr/lib/libXi.so.6 (0xb76aa000) libXrandr.so.2 => /usr/lib/libXrandr.so.2 (0xb76a3000) libXcursor.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXcursor.so.1 (0xb7699000) libpcre.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpcre.so.0 (0xb7670000) librt.so.1 => /lib/librt.so.1 (0xb7667000) /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0xb7fb1000) libXau.so.6 => /usr/lib/libXau.so.6 (0xb7663000) libpangoft2-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpangoft2-1.0.so.0 (0xb7635000) libfreetype.so.6 => /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 (0xb75c6000) libz.so.1 => /lib/libz.so.1 (0xb75b2000) libglitz.so.1 => /usr/lib/libglitz.so.1 (0xb758b000) libpng12.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpng12.so.0 (0xb7566000) libxcb-render-util.so.0 => /usr/lib/libxcb-render-util.so.0 (0xb7561000) libxcb-render.so.0 => /usr/lib/libxcb-render.so.0 (0xb7559000) libexpat.so.1 => /lib/libexpat.so.1 (0xb7537000)
-- ---Bryen---
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On Fri, 2007-12-07 at 10:56 +0100, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
Dňa Wednesday 05 December 2007 22:08:19 Bryen ste napísal:
Continuing in this discussion. there's a nice little magnifier I came across last week. Simple, lightweight, doesn't rely on at-spi library. http://magnifier.sourceforge.net/
Could something like this be integrated into Yast Installer? Mind you, I'm no coder or developer and have high esteem for you guys. At this point, you're probably going to smack me across the head for not realizing how complicated my suggestion actually might be. :-)
For your convenience, I've pasted the output of ldd, since I don't know if any of these libraries are available when running Yast installer.
I don't think you have e.g. pango available during installation.
Stano
Ahh! Oh well. Thought I came up with something decent. :-( Back to the drawing board... Thanks for your feedback. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 09:21 +0100, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
Dňa Wednesday 28 November 2007 04:23:55 Hans Petter Jansson ste napísal:
* What accessibility technologies are available in the installer today, and how are they configured?
AFAIK, we have support for visually impaired people: - linuxrc can be run in linemode to allow screen readers - yast2 ncurses interface has high contrast color scheme available - there is support for braille peripherials
Is this easily available in the installer, though?
* If we're missing accessibility functionality, how feasible would it be to implement it for 11.0?
Depends on the technology. One constraint I see right away is the size of of inst-sys, we would need to do some magic there to keep it reasonably sized.
First, we would need to know exactly what we want to support. The 3 points above?
I think the screen reader would be the most useful component, since that seems to be what people who can't see at all use. I'm told such users currently need human assistance in order to install openSUSE. Braille would primarily be for people who are completely blind and deaf. The magnifier would be a nice bonus, but I don't think it's strictly required if we have the screen reader. Unfortunately, festival is pretty huge. Maybe espeak is smaller, or maybe we can pare it down somehow. -- Hans Petter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org
participants (5)
-
Bryen -
Hans Petter Jansson -
Marco Michna -
Ricardo Cruz -
Stanislav Visnovsky