Am Mittwoch 02 Januar 2008 schrieb Martin Schmidkunz:

Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...

On Saturday 22 December 2007 14:17, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

I thought prototyping in ycp is easier than creating mockups in gimp, so I coded http://ktown.kde.org/~coolo/yast7.png - but it looks weired - suggestions are welcome ;)

Mhm. Maybe a stronger grouping/categorization would help. The language selection should be aligned left as this improves the readability.

I was a little surprised to discover the release notes here as they are also an extra point in the overview on the left.

The release notes linked here are the ones from the medium, the later in the installation process are those downloaded from the net. Those may move to the desktop.

As suggestions are welcome, how about this:

http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Yast8.png

Hmm, I'm not sure removing the media's release notes from installation completely is wise. But we could add it back as an extra button, but then the overall design looks very crowded again - and in all steps, not just the first Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

...

As suggestions are welcome, how about this:

http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Yast8.png

Hmm, I'm not sure removing the media's release notes from installation completely is wise. But we could add it back as an extra button, but then the overall design looks very crowded again - and in all steps, not just the first

Mhm. What about exchanging the "help" button with a "release notes" button? Honestly, our installation dialogs should be so self-explanatory that a help button is not needed during the installation. BTW this is also a way Red Hat copes with this issue.

No. We should people *encourage* to read the release notes, and en extra button encourages people to skip that step.

Why should we encourage people to do that? Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 03 January 2008 17:51, Bernhard Walle wrote:

...

Why should we encourage people to do that?

Because the release notes contain highly important information that *everybody* should read before using the newly installed openSUSE!

I've only been installing SuSE Linux for 10+ years (so I can't really tell), but I have yet to see the first of our release notes that don't blather about a zillion utterly irrelevant things. Plus, when I am installing, I have a lot of other things on my mind. Even if I would take about the stuff in the release notes it would have to wait until I'd find time - which is when I start using the system. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Dne Friday 04 of January 2008 08:44:22 Thomas Goettlicher napsal(a):

On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 18:02 +0100, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...

On Thursday 03 January 2008 17:51, Bernhard Walle wrote:

...

...

Why should we encourage people to do that?

Because the release notes contain highly important information that *everybody* should read before using the newly installed openSUSE!

I've only been installing SuSE Linux for 10+ years (so I can't really tell), but I have yet to see the first of our release notes that don't blather about a zillion utterly irrelevant things. Plus, when I am installing, I have a lot of other things on my mind. Even if I would take about the stuff in the release notes it would have to wait until I'd find time - which is when I start using the system.

What about showing the release notes while packages are installed? At this step of installation the user might be bored to watch the progress bar and has a lot of time to read the release notes.

This is already possible with 10.3. The sad thing is that only the release notes from the media are shown (not the ones which are on-line if they are updated) and only the release notes of the base product is shown (in case of add-on products being installed together with openSUSE. Jiri -- Regards, Jiri Srain YaST Team Leader --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 959 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz

Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Freitag 04 Januar 2008 schrieb Jiri Srain:

...

This is already possible with 10.3. The sad thing is that only the release notes from the media are shown (not the ones which are on-line if they are updated) and only the release notes of the base product is shown (in case of add-on products being installed together with openSUSE.

Mhm. Is it possible somehow to download the online release notes after the network card setup, which happens quite early during the installation process, and show them during package installation? Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 04 January 2008 11:28, Jiri Srain wrote:

...

Mhm. Is it possible somehow to download the online release notes after the network card setup, which happens quite early during the installation process, and show them during package installation?

Yes, it is, it's just not implemented, and it is not required to bring up the network, so we have to handle both cases anyway.

Uh - wasn't fetching the release notes the internet connection test? Do we no longer do it that way? CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow writes:

Am Freitag 04 Januar 2008 schrieb Jiri Srain:

...

This is already possible with 10.3. The sad thing is that only the release notes from the media are shown (not the ones which are on-line if they are updated) and only the release notes of the base product is shown (in case of add-on products being installed together with openSUSE.

But that's indeed a better place to put them then in the first dialog.

Sometimes that's too late. If there are issue with updating in general, partitioning, or file systems, we want to warn the user before package installation. -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Hello, On Jan 8 15:47 Stephan Kulow wrote (shortened):

Am Dienstag 08 Januar 2008 schrieb Karl Eichwalder: ...

...

... If there are issue with updating in general, partitioning, or file systems, we want to warn the user before package installation.

But before it was a button close to Help with no guarantee whatsoever that people read it.

If there is info which must be known by (almost) all users, shouldn't such kind of info shown mandatory? E.g. via something like a popup warning message which must be confirmed via [OK] or [Yes]/[No] or [Continue]/[Cancel]? In case of a warning it might be even a must to force the user to confirm it to avoid legal issues e.g. regarding liability. Depending on the jurisdiction in the users country a general disclaimer of liability may be void (at least in some cases). Perhaps it is even required in some countries to get an explicite confirmation for each independent issue? Perhaps it is even required in some countries to show the full text of an agreement before the confirmation button appears? For many users it might be annoying to confirm our EULA and confirm whatever warnings before installation and confirm whatever individual package EULAs and so on but if it is necessary from the legal point of view there is nothing we can do. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Hello, On Jan 9 10:14 Stephan Kulow wrote (shortened):

I think it would be wise not to prompt the user with "There is a problem if you do a..b..c" but prompt the user in case he's doing it :)

So having the release notes mandatory does not make sense

Of course. I was not talking about the full release notes but about what Karl wrote, e.g.: "If there are issue with updating in general". E.g.: "Disks with more than 15 partitions are no longer supported!" Of course preferably show this only to the user if an automatism can determine if there is such a disk on the particular system. Perhaps the kernel which runs during installation must run with libata support enabled so that it cannot see if there is such a disk on the particular system? Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch 02 Januar 2008 schrieb Stefan Hundhammer:

Realize something?

Our user has just been confronted with a lot of text in a language that is very likely not his. Unless he speaks English, of course, but the purpose of this dialog is to establish communication with the user -- making him welcome AND letting him select the language.

Actually you most likely never installed from CD - the "welcome" page is "Test your medium" I'm very willing to accept the risk of people figuring they need to look for a way to change the language - which is also the reason I put the combo box in a centered position. Perhaps we can even pimp it up with some icon to make it more obvious, perhaps we don't have to. If you look around, you'll find plenty of examples where this is done like this. And if you think about it, the user's first choice in installing is selecting "Installation" in a language he does not understand. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag 03 Januar 2008 schrieb Stefan Hundhammer:

On Thursday 03 January 2008 12:28, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

If you look around, you'll find plenty of examples where this is done like this. And if you think about it, the user's first choice in installing is selecting "Installation" in a language he does not understand.

And when you select another language in that combo box, the complete dialog gets retranslated, redisplayed and re-layouted? This will be an enormous amount of flickering. That's what's happening in Ubuntu's python installer. Would be a pitty if ycp would create much more flickering.

And no, most examples are NOT like this. Just insert one of those many DVDs in your DVD player that have a language selection. You will see little more than the languages in the first (interactive) screen.

Your wish is my command. So I picked up "Matrix", which is labelled outside all in german and it starts with (yes, right - in english): Scene Selections Special Features Languages [x] Play Movie Hmm, ok. Maybe I had bad luck? So I picked "Being John Malkovich" - hmm, even worse it starts right into the movie in english language and you have to use the remote to switch to Audio 2/3 to get German. Perhaps I only have the wrong DVDs? So I picked "A Knight's Tale" (you might have figured by now - I don't buy too often DVDs :) and its menu is Film Starten [icon] (play movie) [icon] (extras) [icon] (scenes) [icon] (subtitles) [icon] (languages) I don't think your example holds. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 03 January 2008 13:36, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

I was not referring to the language of the audio track, but to the user interface language. I have a number of DVDs at home that let the user select that, too. And they ALL only show a list of languages.

I went through my DVD collection for samples. This is what I came up with: http://www.suse.de/~sh/dvd-lang-menus/ This style is what I had meant in previous posts: http://www.suse.de/~sh/dvd-lang-menus/Beavis-and-Butthead-01.jpg http://www.suse.de/~sh/dvd-lang-menus/Indecent-Proposal-01.jpg http://www.suse.de/~sh/dvd-lang-menus/Sum-of-all-Fears-01.jpg http://www.suse.de/~sh/dvd-lang-menus/Truman-Show.jpg http://www.suse.de/~sh/dvd-lang-menus/Untouchables-01.jpg Some publishers are using a nice background image from the movie: http://www.suse.de/~sh/dvd-lang-menus/Barton-Fink-01.jpg http://www.suse.de/~sh/dvd-lang-menus/Calendar-Girls.jpg http://www.suse.de/~sh/dvd-lang-menus/Ladykillers-01.jpg Some of those language menus double as the main menu of the respective movie or offer more initial settings: http://www.suse.de/~sh/dvd-lang-menus/Bugs-3D.jpg http://www.suse.de/~sh/dvd-lang-menus/Big-Lebowski-01.jpg Many DVDs that are made specifically for the German market and don't have languages other than German (for the target audiences) and the original soundtrack (most often English) don't bother with language selection. It makes sense for them; the original soundtrack is meant as an add-on feature for those Germans who'd like to watch the movie in the original version, but are native German speakers, so the German main menu is not an obstacle for them. Most DVDs that come with more audio tracks (French, Spanish, Italian) OTOH do have an initial language menu. This is the most similar case to our installation: Our target audience is also international. We can't make very many safe assumptions what language they will understand. BTW many DVD publishers seem to be sloppy or simply don't give a damn about their target audience: Even DVDs that are clearly targeted at the German market (German DVD case and print and all) and also many that do have a language menu simply have an English main menu. They do know, of course, how to translate their force-displayed (no way to skip on a whitebook compatible DVD player) legalese. This kind of user neglect is something we should not try to emulate. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org