[yast-devel] Time for a change: Let's rename YaST

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[yast-devel] Nuernberg YaST team -...

Lukas Ocilka

1 Apr 2008 1 Apr '08

16:29

Hi, Just now it might be the right time to change the name we have been using for years 'YaST'. It seems we (and our users) still consider this name being somehow 'geeky' [0]. Why should we do that :)? Well, I've found that people still don't know how to write it and similarly as a language evolves, we could follow our users and make it easier for them. Currently several mutations are in use: 'YaST', 'Yast', 'yast', 'YAST', ... The change could be trivial 'YaST' -> 'YAST' (because it is an abbreviation). We could compare the proposed change to 'SuSE' -> 'SUSE' (currently 'openSUSE', of course). Bye Lukas -- Lukas Ocilka, YaST Developer (xn--luk-gla45d) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ano, ano. Moudry rozkaz. Sam jsem nemel v tech gratulacich jasno. [0] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/geeky 1. a peculiar or otherwise dislikable person, esp. one who is perceived to be overly intellectual. 2. a computer expert or enthusiast (a term of pride as self-reference, but often considered offensive when used by outsiders.)

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Klaus Kaempf

2 Apr 2 Apr

10:31

* Lukas Ocilka [Apr 01. 2008 18:29]:

...

The change could be trivial 'YaST' -> 'YAST' (because it is an abbreviation). We could compare the proposed change to 'SuSE' -> 'SUSE' (currently 'openSUSE', of course).

Following good example, I'd propose to rename it to 'openYAST' and adapt all package name accordingly (openYaST-xxx). ;-) Klaus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Lukas Ocilka

11:14

Klaus Kaempf napsal(a):

...

* Lukas Ocilka [Apr 01. 2008 18:29]:

...
The change could be trivial 'YaST' -> 'YAST' (because it is an abbreviation). We could compare the proposed change to 'SuSE' -> 'SUSE' (currently 'openSUSE', of course).

Following good example, I'd propose to rename it to 'openYAST' and adapt all package name accordingly (openYaST-xxx).

Yes, this was an expected reply. Is Klaus the only one who *has* an opinion on that? L.

Jiří Suchomel

11:46

On st 2. dubna 2008, Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...

Klaus Kaempf napsal(a):

...
* Lukas Ocilka [Apr 01. 2008 18:29]:

...
The change could be trivial 'YaST' -> 'YAST' (because it is an abbreviation). We could compare the proposed change to 'SuSE' -> 'SUSE' (currently 'openSUSE', of course).

Following good example, I'd propose to rename it to 'openYAST' and adapt all package name accordingly (openYaST-xxx).

Yes, this was an expected reply. Is Klaus the only one who *has* an opinion on that?

Are you interested in opinions like "I don't see any reason for such change" ? j -- Jiri Suchomel SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsuchome@suse.cz Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Praha 9, Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

11:53

Am Mittwoch 02 April 2008 schrieb Jiří Suchomel:

...

On st 2. dubna 2008, Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...
Klaus Kaempf napsal(a):

...
* Lukas Ocilka [Apr 01. 2008 18:29]:

...
The change could be trivial 'YaST' -> 'YAST' (because it is an abbreviation). We could compare the proposed change to 'SuSE' -> 'SUSE' (currently 'openSUSE', of course).

Following good example, I'd propose to rename it to 'openYAST' and adapt all package name accordingly (openYaST-xxx).

Yes, this was an expected reply. Is Klaus the only one who *has* an opinion on that?

Are you interested in opinions like "I don't see any reason for such change" ?

Not on second of april, no? Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Olaf Dabrunz

12:11

On 02-Apr-08, Jiří Suchomel wrote:

...

On st 2. dubna 2008, Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...
Klaus Kaempf napsal(a):

...
* Lukas Ocilka [Apr 01. 2008 18:29]:

...
The change could be trivial 'YaST' -> 'YAST' (because it is an abbreviation). We could compare the proposed change to 'SuSE' -> 'SUSE' (currently 'openSUSE', of course).

Following good example, I'd propose to rename it to 'openYAST' and adapt all package name accordingly (openYaST-xxx).

Yes, this was an expected reply. Is Klaus the only one who *has* an opinion on that?

Are you interested in opinions like "I don't see any reason for such change" ?

Simply change. ;) O -- Olaf Dabrunz (od/odabrunz), SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Nürnberg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

12:08

On Wednesday 02 April 2008 06:14:45 am Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...

Klaus Kaempf napsal(a):

...
* Lukas Ocilka [Apr 01. 2008 18:29]:

...
The change could be trivial 'YaST' -> 'YAST' (because it is an abbreviation). We could compare the proposed change to 'SuSE' -> 'SUSE' (currently 'openSUSE', of course).

Following good example, I'd propose to rename it to 'openYAST' and adapt all package name accordingly (openYaST-xxx).

Yes, this was an expected reply. Is Klaus the only one who *has* an opinion on that?

L.

It seems so Luke ;-) I agree that 'shift y' 'a' 'shift st' looks more like typing training lesson, but how much work is to rename all strings that have YaST in it? With SuSE, SUSE, openSUSE is not all done yet, see SuSEconfig and SuSE-release, and bunch of articles around. The easy part is to put new name on product, the hard part is to convince all the people and their programs to accept new name. I guess that is the reason for SuSEconfig and SuSE-release long survival. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Lukas Ocilka

12:15

Rajko M. napsal(a):

...

I agree that 'shift y' 'a' 'shift st' looks more like typing training lesson, but how much work is to rename all strings that have YaST in it? With SuSE, SUSE, openSUSE is not all done yet, see SuSEconfig and SuSE-release, and bunch of articles around.

The easy part is to put new name on product, the hard part is to convince all the people and their programs to accept new name. I guess that is the reason for SuSEconfig and SuSE-release long survival.

Hmm, well, I just wanted to know opinions on the newly proposed name. There are a lot of reasons to rename it but I wanted to hear also opinions why not to do so. For instance: * We've been using it for ages, why should we rename it if "it works"? * There would be a lot of work renaming it everywhere. * Users would be confused with a new name. * etc... I wanted to write such proposal a month ago but 1st April made me finally do that! :) ;) L.

Arvin Schnell

12:24

On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 02:15:17PM +0200, Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...

Hmm, well, I just wanted to know opinions on the newly proposed name. There are a lot of reasons to rename it but I wanted to hear also opinions why not to do so. For instance:

If we rename it to openYAST but don't change anything to justify then "open" people will just say: Yet another Stupid Marketing Action. cu Arvin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Lukas Ocilka

12:45

Arvin Schnell napsal(a):

...

On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 02:15:17PM +0200, Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...
Hmm, well, I just wanted to know opinions on the newly proposed name. There are a lot of reasons to rename it but I wanted to hear also opinions why not to do so. For instance:

If we rename it to openYAST but don't change anything to justify then "open" people will just say: Yet another Stupid Marketing Action.

I'm sure you understood openYAST was a joke. YaST -> YAST could be joint with the new look and feel made in openSUSE 11.0 (Qt and ncurses wizard). L.

Stefan Hundhammer

13:13

On Wednesday 02 April 2008 14:45, Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...

I'm sure you understood openYAST was a joke.

YaST -> YAST could be joint with the new look and feel made in openSUSE 11.0 (Qt and ncurses wizard).

OK, you asked for it, now here it comes... Renaming existing software is just about the most stupid thing you can do. Ever. Remember when whoever decided to rename YaST2 to just YaST? We renamed some things on the outside. Most user-visible stuff was renamed. Or at least, so we thought. But since we never followed it through completely, all we got was one big mess. Some things are renamed, some are not. Some you just can't rename because it's deep within APIs nobody wants to change or even just can change just like that. It would break a lot of things. We made that mistake once, and we never recovered from it. It's now one big mess - things are inconsistent all over the place. Think of package names (all starting with yast2-). Think of C++ class names (many of them prefixed with Y2Something - Y2 for "YaST2"). Think of user-visible strings - many translated, others not. Now what on earth would make us spread this confusion even further? Are you bored, or do you really mean to carry on a 1st April's joke further? CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Lukas Ocilka

13:20

New subject: [yast-devel] Let's stay with 'YaST' [was: Time for a change: Let's rename YaST]

Stefan Hundhammer napsal(a):

...

On Wednesday 02 April 2008 14:45, Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...
I'm sure you understood openYAST was a joke.

YaST -> YAST could be joint with the new look and feel made in openSUSE 11.0 (Qt and ncurses wizard).

OK, you asked for it, now here it comes...

Renaming existing software is just about the most stupid thing you can do. Ever.

Remember when whoever decided to rename YaST2 to just YaST?

We renamed some things on the outside. Most user-visible stuff was renamed. Or at least, so we thought. But since we never followed it through completely, all we got was one big mess. Some things are renamed, some are not. Some you just can't rename because it's deep within APIs nobody wants to change or even just can change just like that. It would break a lot of things.

We made that mistake once, and we never recovered from it. It's now one big mess - things are inconsistent all over the place. Think of package names (all starting with yast2-). Think of C++ class names (many of them prefixed with Y2Something - Y2 for "YaST2"). Think of user-visible strings - many translated, others not.

Now what on earth would make us spread this confusion even further? Are you bored, or do you really mean to carry on a 1st April's joke further?

OK, I got what I needed. Strong opinions are the most important ones. But it always depends on the presentation. Some people might feel offended. Thx & Bye Jast

Stefan Hundhammer

13:08

On Wednesday 02 April 2008 14:24, Arvin Schnell wrote:

...

On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 02:15:17PM +0200, Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...
Hmm, well, I just wanted to know opinions on the newly proposed name. There are a lot of reasons to rename it but I wanted to hear also opinions why not to do so. For instance:

If we rename it to openYAST but don't change anything to justify then "open" people will just say: Yet another Stupid Marketing Action.

And they'll be 100% right, too. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

12:24

On Wednesday 02 April 2008 07:15:17 am Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...

Rajko M. napsal(a):

...
I agree that 'shift y' 'a' 'shift st' looks more like typing training lesson, but how much work is to rename all strings that have YaST in it? With SuSE, SUSE, openSUSE is not all done yet, see SuSEconfig and SuSE-release, and bunch of articles around.

The easy part is to put new name on product, the hard part is to convince all the people and their programs to accept new name. I guess that is the reason for SuSEconfig and SuSE-release long survival.

Hmm, well, I just wanted to know opinions on the newly proposed name. There are a lot of reasons to rename it but I wanted to hear also opinions why not to do so. For instance:

* We've been using it for ages, why should we rename it if "it works"? * There would be a lot of work renaming it everywhere. * Users would be confused with a new name. * etc...

I wanted to write such proposal a month ago but 1st April made me finally do that! :) ;)

L.

:-D I guessed so, and reply was just to make sure that your calender is still working ;-) -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands to organize it and maintain. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Hundhammer

13:07

On Wednesday 02 April 2008 13:14, Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...

Yes, this was an expected reply. Is Klaus the only one who *has* an opinion on that?

So it was really not just a first of April joke? CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Jiri Srain

14:30

Dne Wednesday 02 of April 2008 12:14:45 Lukas Ocilka napsal(a):

...

Klaus Kaempf napsal(a):

...
* Lukas Ocilka [Apr 01. 2008 18:29]:

...
The change could be trivial 'YaST' -> 'YAST' (because it is an abbreviation). We could compare the proposed change to 'SuSE' -> 'SUSE' (currently 'openSUSE', of course).

Following good example, I'd propose to rename it to 'openYAST' and adapt all package name accordingly (openYaST-xxx).

Yes, this was an expected reply. Is Klaus the only one who *has* an opinion on that?

I don't see any reason to rename YaST either. How often do you write it correctly capitalized if you don't write any reviews? ;-) To my experience, review writers are not able to write Opensuse correctly with current capitalization anyway :-( , so it would not help here. Would it help someone if we added also symlinks /sbin/YAST, /sbin/YAST2 and possibly also /sbin/YAST@ ? ;-) Jiri -- Regards, Jiri Srain YaST Team Leader --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 959 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz

Duncan Mac-Vicar P.

21:31

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...

Yes, this was an expected reply. Is Klaus the only one who *has* an opinion on that?

LOL, I guess not all people to follow such discussions week away from a product release, exactly when those changes can't be done and espacialy when the adrenaline makes you forget it was April 1st? :-) Talking seriously. The only change I would support is to get rid of the 2. Having a number in the source code and other ugly places is not good, it is too hard to get rid of it. It should be just YaST or yast or YAST, unless we want to stick to that YaSTX thing, then we should do the jump to 3 someday, otherwise it is pretty boring :-) Duncan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH8/tEzR62qWZ+QtERAuSeAKCh1Ehx6akpgKsjadg1bp+KoVA7sgCdGu5p 51SIAy5nDrsQ7+5FEbQFu2o= =hur5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Jiri Srain

3 Apr 3 Apr

06:09

Dne Wednesday 02 of April 2008 23:31:48 Duncan Mac-Vicar P. napsal(a):

...

Talking seriously. The only change I would support is to get rid of the 2.

Hmm, when talking about the configuration tool, we usually call it only "YaST" even now. However, I really like the possibility to specify whether I want a graphical or text-mode interface just by distinguishing between 'yast2 foo' and 'yast foo'. This is something many people are used to IMHO. Jiri -- Regards, Jiri Srain YaST Team Leader --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 959 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz

Johannes Meixner

07:28

Hello, On Apr 3 08:09 Jiri Srain wrote (shortened):

...

... I really like the possibility to specify whether I want a graphical or text-mode interface just by distinguishing between 'yast2 foo' and 'yast foo'.

I think it is independent of the "brand name" of the thingy how many symbolic links with which names point to it. Of course if the thingy was renamed to "YAST", /sbin/yast should run the thingy in its default (i.e. GUI) mode. By the way: Let's call the thingy just "thingy" (or "Thingy" or "ThinGy" or "thinGY" or "ThInGy" or "THINGY" or "T.h.I.n.G.y") because this makes it obvious even for unexperienced users, that proper names and spellings are nowadays meaningless. kindREGARDS JoHaNnEs M.e.I.x.N.e.R -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Lukas Ocilka

09:00

Duncan Mac-Vicar P. napsal(a):

...

Talking seriously. The only change I would support is to get rid of the 2.

Having a number in the source code and other ugly places is not good, it is too hard to get rid of it. It should be just YaST or yast or YAST, unless we want to stick to that YaSTX thing, then we should do the jump to 3 someday, otherwise it is pretty boring :-)

See opensuse-factory, this is what I'm talking about: --- cut --- Subject: [opensuse-factory] *YaSt2* problems From: Russ Fineman To: SUSE Factory SUSE 11.0 Alpha2 KDE *Yast* shows I need updates of YaSt and other programs. Using *YaST2* --> Software Management I can select updates but downloading gives the following errors: ... --- cut --- Three different *Jasts* in one mail: YaSt2, Yast, and YaST2 ;) N-joy! L.

Bernhard Walle

11:32

New subject: [yast-devel] Re: Time for a change: Let's rename YaST

* Lukas Ocilka [2008-04-03 11:00]:

...

Three different *Jasts* in one mail: YaSt2, Yast, and YaST2 ;)

So let's invent a 4th variant! Bernhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Dominique Leuenberger

11:37

New subject: [yast-devel] Re: Time for a change: Let's rename YaST

>>> On 4/3/2008 at 13:32, Bernhard Walle  wrote:
> * Lukas Ocilka [2008-04-03 11:00]:
>>
>> Three different *Jasts* in one mail: YaSt2, Yast, and YaST2 ;)
> 
> So let's invent a 4th variant!
> 

Is is approaching fast to be JAST -> Just another silly thread ;)
But for consistency between mailing list and product, the ML should be renamed to yast2-devel please...

Dominique

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Bernhard Walle

11:47

New subject: [yast-devel] Re: Time for a change: Let's rename YaST

* Dominique Leuenberger [2008-04-03 13:37]:

...

But for consistency between mailing list and product, the ML should be renamed to yast2-devel please...

Alias. We need an alias. Bernhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Klaus Kaempf

09:52

* Duncan Mac-Vicar P. [Apr 02. 2008 23:31]:

...

Talking seriously. The only change I would support is to get rid of the 2.

Yeah, agreed, but we already tried that before ... Klaus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

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13 participants

participants (13)

Arvin Schnell
Bernhard Walle
Dominique Leuenberger
Duncan Mac-Vicar P.
Jiri Srain
Jiří Suchomel
Johannes Meixner
Klaus Kaempf
Lukas Ocilka
Olaf Dabrunz
Rajko M.
Stefan Hundhammer
Stephan Kulow