On 5/7/06, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Hello!

Am Sonntag, 7. Mai 2006 09:03 schrieb Andreas:

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The most important sections (I believe) are downloads and documentation.

Maybe they can be placed somewhat more prominent on the front page.

What happened to http://en.opensuse.org/Frontpage_redesign?

I think it didn't quite gather quite enough momentum. I originally proposed it in the openSUSE meeting, and I must admit I haven't done a page myself. It is a shame we couldn't get something done before release of 10.1 as with every release the traffic skyrockets on the site. The general structure of the wiki is of course just as important. If you look at most distros, their front pages are in fact quite crap. ubuntu.com in some ways is very similar to opensuse.org, it looks like it was created on Day 1 of the project and not changed since. Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't try again with getting a better frontpage now that the latest release is over. Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin

On Sunday 07 May 2006 14:09, jdd wrote:

I don't see there is really problem with tables, but I don"t like the new layout

Everyone should heed this warning! I cannot stress enough the importance of leaving the design of an important and busy website to people who have *significant* web design experience. More harm than good will happen if people who obviously have no large or commercial website design experience continue to make arbitrary changes to the design of the opensuse website. The documentation page layout is now *broken*. The 'Other languages' box now renders *below* the page footer in Firefox and probably on other browsers too. Using tables for layout breaks accepted design principles for a few good reasons. Two of the most important reasons are as follows. (1) The way the page may be rendered in different browsers on different platforms is usually broken by the wrong and excessive use of table layouts. Visit the documentation page use the firefox view menu and go to 'Page Style' and then select 'No Style'. Now look at the way the page is rendered and scroll down the the table. See how most of the page scrolls sensibly in a top to bottom manner, and see how the table breaks this by spreading across the screen. Now imagine someone visiting this page in a PDA or other small screen device. Or imagine how messy this will not look in a text only browser. Using tables in this fashion breaks the design of a page for multiple platforms. There are CSS stylesheet attributes to facilitate these platforms and using tables for layout breaks this. (2) Screen readers and other accessibility technologies get confused by table layouts. This is probably the most important reason to *never* use tables for layout design. Screen readers may incorrectly read back to the user information that's not properly presented in tables. What is worse is the screen reader may not even read any of the information to the user if the tables are nested. Screen readers expect tables to contain tabular data, which not surprisingly is what tables are meant and designed to be used for, not layout designs.

On 5/7/06, Graham Anderson wrote:

On Sunday 07 May 2006 14:09, jdd wrote:

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I don't see there is really problem with tables, but I don"t like the new layout

Everyone should heed this warning!

I cannot stress enough the importance of leaving the design of an important and busy website to people who have *significant* web design experience. More harm than good will happen if people who obviously have no large or commercial website design experience continue to make arbitrary changes to the design of the opensuse website.

It is a wiki. People who have *significant* web design experience, can join in anytime. But if you look at the history there is quite a small number of people who have done most of the existing work on the wiki, working from a bare skeleton. The design process of a wiki is to make the change, and then review by peers, like we are doing here. Significant structural changes are rare, and the pivotal pages tend towards stability, with a jolt every now and then.

The documentation page layout is now *broken*. The 'Other languages' box now renders *below* the page footer in Firefox and probably on other browsers too.

The documentation page is not broken. The Other Languages box is another matter...

Using tables for layout breaks accepted design principles for a few good reasons. Two of the most important reasons are as follows.

<SNIP comments about tables and usability> All your crticism of tables are totally valid, and there is no dispute. However the old Documentation page had a two-column table as well, and is only modifed. (I have to admit I introduced that table in my layout of the Documantation page last year). I agree that we should replace my use of tables for layout. It is no defence that a lot of wiki including Wikipedia uses them extensively, especially for index and front pages. This will also impact any front page redesign, as the suggestions I have seen use tables extensively. Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin

On Sunday 07 May 2006 14:34, Sven Burmeister wrote:

What are the reasons wikipedia uses tables?

Sven

Using tables is a shortcut, unfortunately a bad one :( There are many thousands of users that add content to wikipedia, most of them are probably unaware that using tables for layout is bad. People use tables as a convenience to circumvent the limitations of the HTML/XHTML specifications.

On Sun, May 07, 2006 at 04:18:34PM +0200, Sven Burmeister wrote:

IMHO wikipedia is well known to all kinds of users, devs and normal users, so it might sense to have a similar way of presenting information, simply because people are used to it.

There are plenty out there that seldom use wikipedia. I am one of them an dyet those few times I did I never saw such a site. Also even if 95% of the population is using someting, if it is wrong, it still is wrong. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Sun, May 07, 2006 at 07:53:33PM +0200, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Hi!

Am Sonntag, 7. Mai 2006 16:43 schrieb houghi:

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There are plenty out there that seldom use wikipedia. I am one of them an dyet those few times I did I never saw such a site. Also even if 95% of the population is using someting, if it is wrong, it still is wrong.

Fair enough, so where is the same site, made with CSS only. If it is possible to do it another way, there you go, it's OSS. :) I have not seen that many proposals, so just criticising is not enough.

I have changed the layout. http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation This so it is more consistent with the rest of the Wiki. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 10:05:51AM +0200, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Would you please construct the wikipedia-startingpage using CSS.

Is this directed at me or at everybody?

Consistency with the rest of the wiki was not really the task, since this thread is about changing, the current layout and not bringing it back.

For me it is about consitencey.

I still think that wikipedia is the most known wiki and hence the layout most people, especially non-experts, know. So even if using tables is not good, one should re-create that layout, but using CSS.

I see no real problem with the layout as it is. Content, yes, but not layout. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On 5/8/06, jdd wrote:

All other is, for example, the size of the icons. I said long time ago than the icons are _much_ too large, given if one clic on then it pens the icon and not the link.

My page did not have this issue and all icons would link to the appropriate page. Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin

http://fr.opensuse.org/Plan_du_wiki we could also have a page like this - sort of wikimap. but needs a maintainer we could also have a better "opensuse:browse" page like this: http://fr.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Liste_des_catégories I used the browse page, but added on top the most important categories with they description content but this page also needs a maintainer jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

On 5/8/06, jdd wrote:

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Peter Flodin wrote:

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On 5/8/06, jdd wrote:

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All other is, for example, the size of the icons. I said long time ago than the icons are _much_ too large, given if one clic on then it pens the icon and not the link.

My page did not have this issue and all icons would link to the appropriate page.

Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin I just tested it and the icons opened the image, not the link

the solution at this problem proposed on mediawiki are all ugly AFAIK (I would be glad to have a clue :-) jdd

That's what templates are for, to hide complexity and ugliness.

If you look at this version http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=Documentation&oldid=18742 the icons link and even have the correct mouseover.

Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin.

Peter Flodin wrote: pflodo, the template wizard :-) I'll get a look at that. I see that the template don't display the same on mozilla and konqueror, but this may not hurt thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 12:40:38PM +0200, jdd wrote:

I added to the documentation links to keyword search (search engines and categories) and made the icon much smallers

feel free to edit if you don't like it.

I suddenly miss a lot of "User Documentation" There are 10 items and I only see seven. Is there a reason you removed 3? I can imagine that you removed the 'New users start here', but then it must be added completely. I also like 'User made documentation' better then 'User documentation, because I think all documentation is for users. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On 5/9/06, houghi wrote:

On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 12:40:38PM +0200, jdd wrote:

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I added to the documentation links to keyword search (search engines and categories) and made the icon much smallers

feel free to edit if you don't like it.

I suddenly miss a lot of "User Documentation" There are 10 items and I only see seven. Is there a reason you removed 3? I can imagine that you removed the 'New users start here', but then it must be added completely.

Why 'must' they? The whole point is to structure a page to be better, in that case there is no such rule. The only conversation that needs to be had is what a complete newbie to SUSE Linux needs to read first, and that goes in the Start Here section. I removed link to 'Projects' as that is now linked to from sidebar. I moved Development Doco to it's own section I removed Artwork, as it is not really doco, but as I haven't found a good place to put it, it should probably go back in.

I also like 'User made documentation' better then 'User documentation, because I think all documentation is for users.

That is a bit of a silly argument. It is common to have User Guides, Administration Guides, Developer Guides. Each one is clear who it is aimed at. It doesn't matter that a Developer is also a user. Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin

On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 11:56:22AM +0200, jdd wrote:

All other is, for example, the size of the icons. I said long time ago than the icons are _much_ too large, given if one clic on then it pens the icon and not the link. I made them smaller in my page, so the mistake if much less to happen.

http://fr.opensuse.org/Documentation_par_les_utilisateurs

I liked that and tried to do that as well. It seems I can't use the sime icons and I was a bit too lazy to make new icons. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 06:21:41PM +0200, jdd wrote:

houghi wrote:

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On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 11:56:22AM +0200, jdd wrote:

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All other is, for example, the size of the icons. I said long time ago than the icons are _much_ too large, given if one clic on then it pens the icon and not the link. I made them smaller in my page, so the mistake if much less to happen.

http://fr.opensuse.org/Documentation_par_les_utilisateurs

I liked that and tried to do that as well. It seems I can't use the sime icons and I was a bit too lazy to make new icons.

houghi files are already there (same name than before, but 24px- in front of the name

I wasn't able to resize the image with |24px]], don't know why jdd

I tried both and it did not work. Strange. I even copied and pasted it from the French page, so as not to have an error in spelling. Nothing. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 07:28:33PM +0200, jdd wrote:

houghi wrote:

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I tried both and it did not work. Strange. I even copied and pasted it from the French page, so as not to have an error in spelling. Nothing.

but the english documentation page _has_ them, here an excerp:

|- |[[Image:25px-Icon-wifi.png]] |[[Hardware]]<br><small>Supported platforms, hardware compatibility lists, tweaking, optimizing, and troubleshooting.</small>

I even did a copy and paste from the fr page. |valign="top"|[[Image:25px-Icon-info.png]][[/Commencez ici|Commencez ici]]<br><small>Si vous ne connaissez pas openSUSE ou Linux en général, visitez d'abord cette page.</small> That also did not work. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

houghi wrote:

On Sun, May 07, 2006 at 01:54:45PM +0100, Graham Anderson wrote:

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On Sunday 07 May 2006 06:42, Peter Flodin wrote:

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I have started with http:\\en.opensuse.org\documentation and will continue on each major section linked to from that page, I have already done some reconstruction and moved some pages. No no no!

Stop using tables for layout design! Tables are NOT for layout...

This looks worse than the old page...

Indeed. What is the best way to set it back to what it was? Is there a way to put it back to version X? Would be easier then editing the ugly layout by hand.

houghi it's always possible to go back, see "history".

_But_ before doing so, maybe it's good to think at what could be done. I think pflodo was right moving, even if I wouldn't have done the move in that sense. We where steady too long. May be stay here for the moment and following the front page redesign discussion. when this will be done (give a week?), we will go ahead jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos