On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 07:52:14PM +0200, jdd wrote:

? I don't see what you mean. sidebar is of fixed height. the english one fills more than my 20" screen, and is not at all resizable - it's mostly unreadable.

I think it is readable. It needs a lot of work, that is true. Especially the order might become important. The fact that you might need to scroll might be an issue on the layout.

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Due to this, I now have a left to right movement as well.

what do you mean is a "left to right movement"?

A scrollbar at the bottom. Seems to be gone now, Strange

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The `Page de Garde` links to itself, why?

"Page de garde" is the french for "home page", so on the home page it links to itself, as it always did (it's the same in english page)

OK. Clear.

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There are not enough links in the Utiliser part

why? we are not to create links only to take place, there is room for one if necessary

Not one, many more. I already have given an example of what I think should be there.

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Wich most likely is the cause of the left to right movement I am able to do now.

sorry, I don't understand

It seeems to be gone. I do not know why.

no. I report french speaking events - for the others, the english page is there.

And here I disagree. Why should a French speaking person not be interested in an event in an other language? Or a German speaking or whatever language.

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It should be the goal from the community to be one community, not 650 small ones devided by either Language or country. See below.

I have the need to work with two langages - there are people not speaking english, we have to cope with this - the non-speaking community will lack things as long as automatic translation is not trustable (and it is not, I tried).

Not automated, but better organized. You have one central language. To wich everything will be translated and from wich wich everything will be translated. So if a Chinese person adds something on a chines page, we need to have a system in place that translates it to English, so that others can translate it from English to e.g. French.

? what do you mean? it's exactly what I said

Great. Then there we agree. :-)

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Localised wikis are very good for beginners, end user documentation, tips and tricks,download...

Not if parts of it are on one language and others are on another.

complete bi(multi?)-directional translation is not likely to be done. It would ask for much more power than we can afford

That is however the only way to keep all languages on the same level. Otherwise you will have one article that is great in French, another that is great in German and some pages that have people working on the same content next to eachother.

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As a person living in Belgium, these flags are the most stupid invention ever. Flags are countries, langages are not. Will you have a Belgium flag? If so, to what language will it point? If not, why don't you give the Belgians their own flag?

do you speak "belgium"? or "français"? words are the most stupid... (same phrase as your)

I do not speak "Belgium" because it is not a language. That is the whole point of why flags are not a good idea to use on a Wiki that is directed at languages. I speak some French, but it is only my fourth language. It is not possible to interchange langages and countries. I live long enough in Belgium to understand the problem

I didn't change the layout of the page, only part of the content of the sidebar, and did you notice this sidebar changes from time to time? without anybody answered?

The pages look different enough to me. The left sidebar has much less information, there is suddenly a picture in the right sidebar. There is different information and the information in the middle is bold. Also there is a different Linuxtag picture. Even tough the same colours and some basic layout is used, it is clear that the content is different with some layout changes. For me this translates as to that there are two different sorts of openSUSE. A fr one and all the rest.

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The English version should be a central point of translation. Meaning that when somebody changes something on the "en" pages, oothers should translate it.

do it :-)

I already do that by placing my changes on the "en" page. You would not want be translating to any language, believe me.

When somebody translates something on a "fr" page, this

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change should be done as soon as possible to the "en" pages, so that other translations have the information as well.

this is not to happen anytime soon :-(((

So what can we do to make this possible or easier? I would love to get an email when somebody does a change on http://en.opensuse.org/Making_a_DVD_from_CDs or on http://de.opensuse.org/Erstellen_einer_DVD_aus_den_CDs or on http://en.opensuse.org/JA-Making_a_DVD_from_CDs even though I can't read that last one. Other people might then also be warned when a change is done on the page and linked pages and thus get to implement these changes if they can

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I admire your will to change things, I do not like the direction you want to go. Please understand that this is not a flame. It is just my point of view.

I wish it could be possible, but it's not the actual french wiki state is a three month work 2 hours a day and it's not nearly done as well as I would like.

translation is not a goal in itself. The goal is to attract as many people as we can, with the best doc we can.

Yes, and this goes for all languages, not only French. That is the reason changes to the frontpage should be uniform and not just done on one language. I believe it is a bad idea to change one language and see if anybody likes it and then later change it back and forth. I think a frontpage is completely the wrong place to experiment. To me it looks un-organised and it would scare me away, rather then be attracted to the whole project. It shows how devided we are, whereas identical and only a translated frontpage will show a unified coherent front. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 09:22:48PM +0200, jdd wrote:

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Not one, many more

desagree. good info is little info, is not you get sunk

Not always. You need correct information, not just a little.

why not also japanese events? if you don't undeerstand english, why did you bother english meetings?

Indeed why not. You have no idea if the reader understands English or not. You just asume they do not.

but of course the choice of events is not that simple, I'm open to ideas - english front page is not always up to date. linuxtag image, I was first to have one :-)

For me it is easy. All of them.

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That is however the only way to keep all languages on the same level. Otherwise you will have one article that is great in French, another that is great in German and some pages that have people working on the same content next to eachother.

life is like this :-)

I do not think the smiley is apropriate.

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So what can we do to make this possible or easier? I would love to get an email when somebody does a change on

same for me. This exists in mediawiki but seems disabled on opensuse

So to SUSE: Please enable it.

you wont find linuxtag on others languages frontpages. I set it up because linuxtag is near France and I ope some of our readers could go.

I think it is a pity that it is not on all pages.

such thing, for now, only show how unable we are of doing things - how many month front page discussion for nothing?

I know and that still does not mean to just storm and start changing the frontpage of one language. Eiter all or none. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 11:26:40PM +0900, noniko wrote:

Hello, I am one who uses the language in so limited location.

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I would love to get an email when somebody does a change on http://en.opensuse.org/Making_a_DVD_from_CDs or on http://de.opensuse.org/Erstellen_einer_DVD_aus_den_CDs or on http://en.opensuse.org/JA-Making_a_DVD_from_CDs even though I can't read that last one.

How about making a rule that:

One should edit at first the original(English) page if he would make a major change of the content.

If that is possible, that would be the best. The disadvantage is that many times the person who can do the change does not know any English or enough Enlish to do the changes. It would be a pity to loose the knowledge of these people. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:23:03AM +0900, noniko wrote:

Hello, today I went to fr.opensuse.org. I don't see any strange difference in design between fr and en pages.

There are much less links on the left and an extra picture on the right, To me that means that there is less (or different, wich is even worse) information. For me not a good thing, but it seems I am the only one who cares about it and/or thinks that each first page should have the same content and layout. So this will be my last comment on it (unless others suddenly plan to get into the discussion) <snip>

In Japan recently I got contact with Novell Japan staff. They are interested in the current situation in translation and localization , so we're going to have a "sashi-de-hanasu (face to face) " discussion on it next week.

Great. Perhaps some SUSE people here can give you some pointers and extra information on whom to contact internally at SUSE. That way they might get use of the tools available for only SUSE/Noevell people. I am just guessing here. Perhaps Sonja can give some pointers. Ain't it great. openSUSE people going to talk to Novell about translation. I love it.

If my next reply is late, please excuse me! I live at night if you live in the daytime.

The same for me. Only I realy live at night. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

vampire? sun allergy? newlywed neighbours? or are you a connoisseur of the famous Brussels nightlife? c'mon, come out of the closet, let us know!

My reason is simple: I am live in the far east. This is what I regret, it's difficult for me to attend a real time net meeting (chat, IRC...) in the world-wide community. When my husband had been a business trip to Wiesbaden (wow, it's just the place of the LinuxTag now!), I woke up 5 o'clock in the morning to chat with him before sleeping. And I don't have sun allergy....I like Solaris as much as SUSE, ha ha. noniko

Great. Perhaps some SUSE people here can give you some pointers and extra information on whom to contact internally at SUSE. That way they might get use of the tools available for only SUSE/Noevell people.

I am just guessing here. Perhaps Sonja can give some pointers.

Ain't it great. openSUSE people going to talk to Novell about translation.

I love it.

Thanks for the helpful information, houghi. The most thing I'm afraid of is separated or disconnected multiple entrances of openSUSE for Japanese users. I think not bad of multiple entrances, but they must be connected each other. Otherwise, Japanese users are confused where to get or post the information on openSUSE. The Novell Japan staff has the same thinking and we are going to colaborate in the activity in Japan. I will report the detail after we have the meeting. This Novell Japan staff I have known for years. He gave me a stuffed Geeko when I last visited a Novell event. noniko

Hi, jdd.

think of goals, not image. The goal is to bring with us the more people we can.

so localized wikis are aimed at all the guys that don't read english or don't like to see english rule the world.

So get in the wiki all the stuff you think Japan folks needs, don't ask at first if this will fit also english ones.

Right. Japanese SUSE users are increasing, but never enough. A high school student, friend of mine recently told me, she is taught at school "Linux is a CUI-based application for server, not recommended for beginners." We should let more people how SUSE is confort to use.

think the biggest localized wiki (german) has only 650 members, when the en one (older, of course) have more than 20.000.

Huge numbers! As for Japanese members, I don't know. Perhaps many Japanese is reading, but only a few of them make any action.

Of course this don't mean that the interesting info of localized wikis don't need to be translated in english, it would be much better is almost all the pages could be the same in all langages, but may be the english subscribers can do the job?

It's a pity many Japanese communities or user's groups are closed, saying "Sorry, only in Japanese". Many activities and discussions are not known in the world. I wish the localized wiki be at the same time a local base for sending informations to the world. noniko

houghi wrote:

Where do you get that number 650?

specialpage:statistics jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

Hi,

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Where do you get that number 650?

specialpage:statistics

It seems interesting. Can I search also for Japanese members? I only grab the JA-team members, that is, only six! But there might be someone who doesn't write his name in Translation_Team page but giving his help in edit. Or people just making use of JA-docs. I'd like to know how many they are, if I could. noniko

the special page is only worth on independant wikis

Hi, jdd, thanks for your instructions! noniko

Peter Flodin wrote:

On 5/3/06, houghi wrote:

It is my belief that it is stated that the English wiki is the project master, and all "important" pages should be kept in synch by the language maintainers.

true. but kept in sync mean nothing important must lack. and I very concerned by the fact (better say my sentiment) that most important pages of the english wiki are a mess :-(( - the dowload page being the worst example. with the arrival of the 10.1 stable, we must anticipate some affluences and make the things smarter.

I think that it is crucial that all the wikis keep the same look and structure, but I am not sure that anybody is actually proposing that they shouldn't be. Some experimentation must be allowed, if what Jdd has done is a good thing, then we can incorporate it, otherwise I think it should be reverted.

+1

It is a Wiki, it is dynamic, that's part of it's power. Anything changed can be undone.

absolutely. But in fact very few people dare do so, and with ages, pages become worst because small patches are coming. of course any change hurts somebody (sorry :-() but not changing is dying :-() jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 06:44:21PM +0200, jdd wrote:

noniko wrote:

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One should edit at first the original(English) page if he would make a major change of the content.

only a sysop can modify the front page (and I'm glad of this :-).

Looking on the change done on the fr.* page it also is obvious that there is no communication between these sysops. Sorry, but I feel very strongly that the content on each page is also part of the corporate identity og openSUSE. <snip>

May be they should considere nominating a non employee sysop for the english wiki (if it's already the case, forgive me)

If the fr.* individual change is a direction, then please no.

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case for Japanese, an implicit rule to make an exact translation

Italians say "traduttore tradittore" (the translator is a treator). An exact translation is a dream :-)

As openSUSE is more a technical one, it is however much better to achieve. e.g. makeSUSE explaining can be pretty easily translated. Translating should be converting a *meaning* from one language to another, not just words. That is the hard part.

anyway I don't think I made a major change, only a cosmetic one.

That can be a HUGE change when it comes to web pages. Look at http://houghi.org with Firefox. The do 'View, Page Style, Newer' ;-) houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 07:14:52PM +0200, jdd wrote:

for me, a cosmetic change is a change nobody see when looking at the page two feets away :-)

I can see the difference beteen the en and fr frontpage from much farther away. :-/ By removing many main links, you have made it in a different page just the same css file.

that is a small change. Changes that are made in the right column are cosmetic (and frequent as they must be) in this meaning

I think we agree that both the right and the left must be changed (and the middle. I just extremely strongly feel that these changes must be done on all languages at the same time and not just by fr.* or any other singular language. I am not even discussing the fact if these changes are good or not. I am discussing the fact that the fr.* pages are now different from the rest and that is wrong. I rather have all pages with the ugly layout of links then 5 with the good and one with the wrong layout.

using flags as front page or raja layout, or going from green to blue _is_ a hudge change (and was made for some suse distro: box is green, boot screen is now blue...)

The changes done on fr.* are huge in my opinion. As long as all boxes are the same and all boot screens are the same, I see no problem. If all boxes are green, exept for the German one, then I have an issue with the boxes. Uniforimty is something that is important and people associate that with strenght. That uniformity is now gone. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau