Dne Friday 23 of November 2007 12:25:26 Stanislav Visnovsky napsal(a):

Dňa Friday 23 November 2007 12:17:40 Thomas Goettlicher ste napísal:

...

Hi everyone,

we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.

This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.

Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center

I like the proposal, although I do not like the fact that the most YaST value-add - the services and client setup, is hidden by default.

Stano

Hi, nice proposal. But I am not sure how our users will evaluate it. It is similar to GTK YaST Control Center and most of people from Czech openSUSE community thinks, the GTK YaST CC is not providing an easy survey :-(. In 10.3 we had some confused GNOME users who wants back Qt YaST (because of CC and SW Management look). Probably they are only a group of the "old time lovers" but they are not so small group to ignore them. If we want to use the proposal, maybe will be good to have possibility to switch into old look for these users. -- Klara -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 23 November 2007 06:30:36 am Klára Cihlářová wrote:

Dne Friday 23 of November 2007 12:25:26 Stanislav Visnovsky napsal(a):

...

Dňa Friday 23 November 2007 12:17:40 Thomas Goettlicher ste napísal:

...

Hi everyone,

we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.

This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.

Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center

I like the proposal, although I do not like the fact that the most YaST value-add - the services and client setup, is hidden by default.

Stano

Hi, nice proposal. But I am not sure how our users will evaluate it. It is similar to GTK YaST Control Center and most of people from Czech openSUSE community thinks, the GTK YaST CC is not providing an easy survey :-(. In 10.3 we had some confused GNOME users who wants back Qt YaST (because of CC and SW Management look).

Probably they are only a group of the "old time lovers" but they are not so small group to ignore them. If we want to use the proposal, maybe will be good to have possibility to switch into old look for these users. -- Klara

It is just idea that I like more as it gives oversight on all options, but it is still not radical. The old time lovers like me will be more than happy with layout giving precedence functionality than following Linux architecture. For instance: System This computer (local) General settings Software Install and remove Repository change [2] Configuration Hardware Drivers Configuration Services <servers> Backup Other computers in (local) network Add and remove (connections) Administration [3] <same as local> etc. [1] This should be only change of default predefined resolution, not hardware setup. It should work in similar way as krandrtray, not loading SaX2, just select different resolution from list of offers and set it on the spot. This module can go step further and change default in xorg.conf. [2] Repository here is collection of local (removable and permanent) and remote (online) repositories. [3] Administration for all computers where we have available tools. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 23 November 2007, Benji Weber said:

On 23/11/2007, Thomas Goettlicher wrote:

...

we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.

Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center

Looking at this mockup, it's almost identical to the "systemsettings" kcontrol replacement (will be default in kde4)[0] and also I believe the gnome app-browser.

I have not looked at how these are implemented, but using them for YaST could be as easy as putting the YaST module .desktop files in the correct places, and adding a few extra fields to the .desktop files. If so this could be the easiest ever major feature to implement.

[0] http://bw.uwcs.co.uk/systemsettings.png

Yup, those of us who have been around a bit longer know that YaST modules were once shown in the KDE Control Center treeview. It should be no big thing to load them into systemsettings too - it uses the same KCModuleProxy class as kcontrol. But what about the non KDE/Gnome YaST users? Do they stay with the existing controlcenter in this model? Will -- Desktop Engineer KDE Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

* Nikolay Derkach [2007-11-23 19:48]:

...

But what about the non KDE/Gnome YaST users? Do they stay with the existing controlcenter in this model?

For others I believe ncurses UI will be sufficient.

Xfce users should have to use the ncurses UI??!!!!!!! Bernhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 14:43 +0100, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:

Hi everyone,

thanks for all your comments on the YaST Control Center redesign so far.

Please find another suggestion for a radical and innovative redesign on: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center#Tagcloudish

The main thought beyond that idea is to increase the size of the modules when the user has used it. Similar to tag clouds, modules that are used often become bigger and therefore * easier to detect * easier to open because the size the user needs to hit with his mouse was increased. The different size would also serve as a kind of "Recently Used" reminder.

One thing I think is a BAD idea is to have the icons move about. I think just having their size increase once they have been used is good, but they must stay in their original position on the interface. Otherwise you are spending more time looking for them than actually doing the task required. Jim -- Jim Pye PyeNet Universal http://www.pyenet.co.nz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Hello, On Nov 28 20:55 member greenarrow1 wrote (shortened):

Being a computer forensics tech I see multiple operating systems and one area of the Linux system I find different than others is we seem to set everything up the way a programmer or tech sees the operation and not the end user. We use terms and info that we understand which the end user does not.

I think we must carefully keep different things separated in the discussion. On the one hand a setup tool cannot work against the design of the underlying stuff in the system. I have seen much too much nice looking design ideas for setup tools which simply cannot be implemented correctly because they are against the design of the underlying stuff in the system. On the other hand a setup tool can and must use terms and info that a normal user can understand and which are still technically correct. It is often difficult to find such terms but in very most cases it is possible.

I looked at the mock ups and I would consider icons enlarging or moving to being a confusing issue to a end user.

I think the whole idea to increase the appearance of icons for used modules is broken because the underlying assumption is that a used module is more likely to be used again but I don't see that this assumption is true because some modules are likely to be used more than once but other modules are likely to be used only once and which one belongs to which class depends on the individual users habits. In http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center there is "distinguish between configured and not-configured modules" It seems there is again such an underlying assumption that a used module (i.e. a "configured module") is more likely not to be used again while a not-used module seems to be "waiting to be used". I don't see that this assumption is true because some modules are likely to be used more than once but other modules are likely to be used not at all. In http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center there is "In order to display any module on two pages, some modules need to go. ... Grouping every thing up intelligently would save a lot modules without loosing functionality. Of course this means a lot of changes to the modules itself." This means in fact that there is no Redesign of YaST Control Center but a Redesign of the whole YaST. A nice attempt to get rid of your original problem how to make a good design for the zillions of existing modules by simply introduce a much bigger new problem (which should be solved by someone else) to reduce the number of modules. I think it is the purpose of the YaST Control Center to deal with zillions of existing modules. Have in mind that YaST is open source so that whoever likes can make as many additional modules as he likes. If the YaST Control Center fails to deal with zillions of modules, the YaST Control Center itself has to be fixed but not the individual modules. When I read http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center I have the feeling that you think mostly in terms of "just another UI design" but I think that UI design cannot solve any real problem. In the printing system there is a similar problem: How to to deal in a print dialog with zillions of possible options and choices which vary from printer to printer? Perhaps the ideas regarding "dealing with 5,000,000 use-cases" at http://www.mmiworks.net/eng/publications/labels/openPrinting.html might help to find a design so that the YaST Control Center can better deal with zillions of modules? Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Hi Johannes,

I have seen much too much nice looking design ideas for setup tools which simply cannot be implemented correctly because they are against the design of the underlying stuff in the system.

I wonder what the underlying stuff might be in our case?

In http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center there is "distinguish between configured and not-configured modules"

Maybe it would be better to distinguish between "installed and available but not yet installed modules".

"In order to display any module on two pages, some modules need to go. ... Grouping every thing up intelligently would save a lot modules without loosing functionality. Of course this means a lot of changes to the modules itself." A nice attempt to get rid of your original problem how to make a good design for the zillions of existing modules by simply introduce a much bigger new problem (which should be solved by someone else) to reduce the number of modules.

:-) Nonetheless, we should carefully check, whether some modules make sense the way they are. But even by reducing/reorganizing some of them I think, that there will be many modules left, which have to be arranged somehow.

When I read http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center I have the feeling that you think mostly in terms of "just another UI design" but I think that UI design cannot solve any real problem.

If I got it correctly, the assumption is, that zillions of modules are similar to zillions of options. I am not sure about that. IMHO you do not have zillions of options in a control centre, but just one and that is to pick the right module.

Perhaps the ideas regarding "dealing with 5,000,000 use-cases" at http://www.mmiworks.net/eng/publications/labels/openPrinting.html

That is an interesting approach. If I got it right, it emphases the tasks, the user wants to accomplish (e.g. paper saving, impressive printing), which can be combined by using a matrix.

might help to find a design so that the YaST Control Center can better deal with zillions of modules?

Have to think about it :-) Kind regards, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Hi George,

We need to get back to common use like, Display, install/uninstall programs, etc which the end user would understand without having to read a manual or wiki to figure out what it does or what it is.

Yes, I think you hit a very good spot here, which is important for the next step, when it comes to categorization/wording of modules.

Ease of use is just as important as having thousands of programs.

Maybe even more :-)

People know if they just used a program or area of a menu so what purpose would this solve?

The idea behind that was that by increasing the size of an icon (target area) the user need less precision and therefore less time to hit it (Fitt's Law). The other benefit is, that the program become visually salient and therefore easier to detect. But as some other people already mentioned, there are some downsides to it: * items don't group as easy as they would do, when they had the same size, which violates basic design principles like Gestalt laws * the presentation of icons is disturbed Cu, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org

Hi Silviu,

It still suffers from having too many intems in one window. I know of a study saying that any list of stuff should have not more than 7 objects in it, in order to be easily "scanned" by humans.

This comes form epxerienced about the human short term memory, which revealed the result, that humans can recall 7 +/- 2 chunks (a chunk is a piece of information like single letters or meaningful, short combinations like FBI). I have some amendments to that: * these studies are usually done in a laboratory with limited distraction. In a real-life environment people usually recall less than 7 +/-2 chunks. * when you use something several times you also encounter some form of recognition, which makes it easier for you to detect some items (if the items remain in the same order, of course :-)) * in my opinion active recall is not as vital to a list design as something else called serial search. This means, that each item is scanned by it's own, until the user finds the item he is looking for.

Having a window chock-full of icons doesn't feel right. It reminds me of the old Windows control panel. When it first appeared everyone would spend 1 minute finding what they wanted, because they had to look at every icon.

Which refers to a problem in serial search :-)

We have to have at least a two level structure, like it's now in YaST.

The issue that is important here is, that different kinds of users are grouping their items differently and would look for the same item in different places. This is a challenge we have to face.

Because of this, a Favorites section is a very good idea.

Good point.

Also, we are used to YaST, we know what it does. But new users might find it confusing that there are two "control centers": one is KDE/Gnome control and the other one is YaST. How should someone new to Linux get the difference between KDE Control "Internet and Network" and "YaST networking"? How is this someone even supposed to know there are two of these, doing different stuff?

Maybe we can split them into "personal settings" (KDE/GNOME control centre) and "system settings" (YaST control center)?

To do the right thing for usability and to keep the mindshare of having YaST, maybe the YaST modules should be fusioned with KDE control, but have distinctive icons, so the users know those are YaST modules.

Which leads to the questions: what about people using other desktop layouts? Cu, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org