Hello everyone, I just took a look at the plans for the new SUSE partitioner and I have to admit I already hate it (sorry for the strong language). I love SUSE - I am sticking with it for a 7th straight year now, but certain tendencies to over-complicate trivial tasks drive me crazy. The goal of the project is to make the new partitioner GUI simple and easy to use, but I am missing both the simplicity and ease-of-use in the following screen-shot : I know I am stupid, but this is the case with 99% of our target user-base. If we want to ignore stupid users we would end like free-BSD - an interesting project for a handful of geeks. Why don't we just use the Gparted GUI in the first window and in the second one we add advanced options (similarly to the current proposal - separated in two). We do not need to reinvent the wheel, just look at the products that are really successful in the market lately : 1. google 2. ipod 3. nintendo wii All of these have 1 common feature that makes them winners - SIMPLICITY. These 3 differentiate themselves through simplicity. In reality a normal user should not need a partitioner but this does not mean we can make it as complicated as we'd like. Simplicity is achieved through different approaches, but I think the two main are : 1. standardization 2. design improvement and simplification In the current mock-up we lack both and it really scares me personally. Best Regards, Nayden
Hi Nayden, > Hello everyone, > > I just took a look at the plans for the new SUSE partitioner and I > have to admit I already hate it (sorry for the strong language). The mock-ups in the openSUSE Wiki are just one idea how to deal with the partitioner. And you just have to play around a little to find the best solution. (Which means, you have to produce a lot of crap to find a golden nugget :-)) In fact, we are also currently working on some other ideas. Unfortunately these ideas are not ready for presentation, yet. As soon as they are, we will share them with you. > Why don't we just use the Gparted GUI in the first window and in the > second one we add advanced options (similarly to the current proposal > - separated in two). We do not need to reinvent the wheel, just look > at the products that are really successful in the market lately : Gparted seems to show a good solution for the desktop. Although it could use some improvement as well. > All of these have 1 common feature that makes them winners - > SIMPLICITY. These 3 differentiate themselves through simplicity. In > reality a normal user should not need a partitioner but this does not > mean we can make it as complicated as we'd like. Simplicity is > achieved through different approaches, but I think the two main are : > > 1. standardization > 2. design improvement and simplification Simplicity is approached by simplification in design, I totally agree with that :-) Other good approaches are: * prioritization * focussing * ... > In the current mock-up we lack both and it really scares me personally. > So, thanks for your interest and your feedback. I hope that we can present you a less scary mock-up within the next weeks :-) Enjoy, Martin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
Hello Martin, thanx for the swift reply - I am looking forward to the new mock-up ! I have a question - is this the mail-list where I can express some ideas about the way an initial partitioning is handled (during installation) ? Cheers, Nayden Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Hi Nayden,
Hello everyone,
I just took a look at the plans for the new SUSE partitioner and I have to admit I already hate it (sorry for the strong language).
The mock-ups in the openSUSE Wiki are just one idea how to deal with the partitioner. And you just have to play around a little to find the best solution. (Which means, you have to produce a lot of crap to find a golden nugget :-)) In fact, we are also currently working on some other ideas. Unfortunately these ideas are not ready for presentation, yet. As soon as they are, we will share them with you.
Why don't we just use the Gparted GUI in the first window and in the second one we add advanced options (similarly to the current proposal - separated in two). We do not need to reinvent the wheel, just look at the products that are really successful in the market lately :
Gparted seems to show a good solution for the desktop. Although it could use some improvement as well.
All of these have 1 common feature that makes them winners - SIMPLICITY. These 3 differentiate themselves through simplicity. In reality a normal user should not need a partitioner but this does not mean we can make it as complicated as we'd like. Simplicity is achieved through different approaches, but I think the two main are :
1. standardization 2. design improvement and simplification
Simplicity is approached by simplification in design, I totally agree with that :-) Other good approaches are: * prioritization * focussing * ...
In the current mock-up we lack both and it really scares me personally.
So, thanks for your interest and your feedback. I hope that we can present you a less scary mock-up within the next weeks :-)
Enjoy,
Martin
Hi Nayden,
I have a question - is this the mail-list where I can express some ideas about the way an initial partitioning is handled (during installation) ? Sure! Just go on!
Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
I have done a ton of installations of SUSE and I basically see 4 different cases : 1. Clean disk - the installer prompts : /swap / /home Without explanations to the end-user why we propose it in this way (or maybe just a small one :-) 2. Windows on the disk : First prompt could be: Do you want to preserve or remove the existing Windows installation ? With two choices which lead to different templates. In case the user wants to keep her Windows, our installer copes perfectly with everything BUT the user is not able to decide how much she wants to shrink the partition. Our script can tell them for example : "the partition is 30% used" and show them a bar where they see what's used and on which they can move/choose visually how much they want to free for Linux (hopefully a 100% ;-). AFAIK from my experience, this is done in an arbitrary way now (at least from an user perspective). 3. SUSE on the disk: in this case the installer can detect SUSE and can give the following choices to the user : Do you want to preserve or remove the existing SUSE installation ? With two choices which lead to different templates. a/ upgrade the existing SUSE installation - automatically use the same / for the system, /swap and /home in the way they exist WITHOUT formatting /home, but later during user-creation automatically change the owner (in case the same user-name is created) b/ a second separate installation (the user wants to have 10.2 & 10.3 at the same time for example) - in this case the installation can proceed similarly to the Windows shrinking case whereas /home will be shrinked in order to create space for the new installation or the user is sent to Advanced partitioning and asked to create a partition in which the new installation could be done -> Advanced partitioning 4. Another LINUX flavor on the disk : installer detects another Linux and a partitioned disk and prompts: Do you want to preserve or remove the existing Linux installation ? With two choices which lead to different templates. a/ - the partition is /swap, /, /home - basically the same structure as SUSE would propose - the installer goes on and offers to format / and /swap and use /home without formating it. In case a user with an existing home folder is created, the scripts automatically change the ownership of this folder. - the partition is different from what SUSE would have suggested, so the installer prompts a brand new re-formatting of the whole disk b/ a second separate installation (the user wants to have SUSE & and another Linux at the same time for example) - in this case the installation can proceed similarly to the Windows shrinking case whereas /home will be shrinked in order to create space for the new installation or the user is sent to Advanced partitioning and asked to create a partition in which the new installation could be done -> Advanced partitioning 5. Advanced + Partition Resizing : In all cases there should be a possibility to switch to advanced partitioning without our "templates" where a skilled user could do what they would like to do (as it is currently). In this advanced options I would create a partition-resizing dialog with the help of which an user can easily resize any partition of choice - no matter if it is a LINUX or a WINDOWS partition. I have always lacked such a feature in the SUSE installer. What do you think ? Nayden Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Hi Nayden,
I have a question - is this the mail-list where I can express some ideas about the way an initial partitioning is handled (during installation) ?
Sure! Just go on!
Enjoy,
Martin
Hi Nayden, hi list,
I have done a ton of installations of SUSE and I basically see 4 different cases :
I think, you gave a good summary of possible installation scenarios. I would rather merge topic 3. (SUSE on the disc) and 4. (another Linux on the disc) and ask the user at the beginning of the installation: "Hey, we have detected another version of SUSE on your machine. Do you want to upgrade this installation or do you want to make a clean installation?" (well, of course we have to go through the wording, but it is just an example :-))
1. Clean disk - the installer prompts : /swap / /home
Makes a lot of sense to me.
Without explanations to the end-user why we propose it in this way (or maybe just a small one :-)
Some explanations will be required to explain this scheme to user who are not familiar with partitioning. Maybe with tool tips? Or some short lines?
2. Windows on the disk : First prompt could be: Do you want to preserve or remove the existing Windows installation ? With two choices which lead to different templates.
In case the user wants to keep her Windows, our installer copes perfectly with everything BUT the user is not able to decide how much she wants to shrink the partition. Our script can tell them for example : "the partition is 30% used" and show them a bar where they see what's used and on which they can move/choose visually how much they want to free for Linux (hopefully a 100% ;-). AFAIK from my experience, this is done in an arbitrary way now (at least from an user perspective).
And the user needs to point at the place where to install the Linux :-) Interestingly our tests with Linux Newbies showed, that they can`t cope with the Ubuntu partitioning during the installation either. I thnk, we should provide some recommended suggestions as well (based on the user`s package selection).
3. SUSE on the disk: a/ upgrade the existing SUSE installation - automatically use the same / for the system, /swap and /home in the way they exist WITHOUT formatting /home, but later during user-creation automatically change the owner (in case the same user-name is created)
Expecially the aspect: WITHOUT formatting is vital!
5. Advanced + Partition Resizing :
In all cases there should be a possibility to switch to advanced partitioning without our "templates" where a skilled user could do what they would like to do (as it is currently).
I agree with that.
In this advanced options I would create a partition-resizing dialog with the help of which an user can easily resize any partition of choice - no matter if it is a LINUX or a WINDOWS partition. I have always lacked such a feature in the SUSE installer.
Yes, we should do that.
What do you think ?
I think you have some very good ideas and I would be happy, if you continue working with us on the partitioner :-) I just have to ask you for some patience in advance, because it might take some time for me to respond mails and to work on the ideas! Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
On 6/27/07, Martin Schmidkunz
Hi Nayden,
I have a question - is this the mail-list where I can express some ideas about the way an initial partitioning is handled (during installation) ? Sure! Just go on!
Enjoy,
Martin
-- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -------------------------------------
Novell, Inc. SUSE(r) Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
I do not understand why we do not take a look at the old Partition Magic (not the new one that Symantec now owns). I understand there is a Partition Magic Open Source now but have to do some research on who is creating the new program for Linux. I remember reading some very good reviews on it as it is almost a clone of the original Partition Magic. That was one of the best partition programs ever made and I know lots of people who use it so why cannot we put this knowledge to use within SUSE. I know with some minor adjustments we can place it within the installation area. This was very easy to use, fast and since it is now in Open Source maybe we can use some of its ideas or further develop it to SUSE installation. George greenarrow1 InNetInvestigations-Forensic SuSe 10.2/TriStar/Apache GoBoLinux
<snip above> Hi George,
I do not understand why we do not take a look at the old Partition Magic (not the new one that Symantec now owns). I understand there is a Partition Magic Open Source now but have to do some research on who is creating the new program for Linux. I remember reading some very good reviews on it as it is almost a clone of the original Partition Magic. That was one of the best partition programs ever made and I know lots of people who use it so why cannot we put this knowledge to use within SUSE. I know with some minor adjustments we can place it within the installation area. This was very easy to use, fast and since it is now in Open Source maybe we can use some of its ideas or further develop it to SUSE installation.
I am not sure Partition Magic(PM) ever went the Linux route. When I looked for a partitioning tool, when I still had Windows, and that would recognise ext2/3 partitions and write a partition table that both Windows and Linux could read. I found a product, which I believe SUSE were/are looking at called Partition Expert(PE). A very nice program, similar to PM and apparently its writing of partition tables is recognised by Linux 90-100% of the time whilst PM' partition tables are not always read by Linux. Just my 2c Hylton -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ux+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ux+help@opensuse.org
participants (5)
-
Hylton Conacher (ZR1HPC) -
Martin Schmidkunz -
Martin Schmidkunz -
member greenarrow1 -
Nayden Anguelov