SUSE PLEASE NOTE - 7.2 Impressions
I hope the SuSE managers read this.
I've been a happy user of SuSE 5.1 since 1997. Solid,
few problems, etc. Unfortunately now nearly obsolete
where new applications are concerned (being libc5).
I found this a good improvement on Red Hat at the time,
which in turn was an improvement on Slackware, itself
an improvement on SLS (with 0.9 kernel, back in '93).
You see where I'm coming from.
I've also had SuSE 6.3 on another machine for the sake
of libc6, though it didn't strike me as being as well
put together as 5.1. Plus a tendency for "Kernel Oops"
and freezing solid (though rarely).
A while ago I bought SuSE-7.0 Professional, but got so
infuriated at the installation experience (it did something
silly during the X setup which meant that that failed;
then "finished" the installation; subsequently there
seemed to be no way to go back to the X stage in a
restarted installation -- it seemed to think that was all
done) that I simply put that on one side and haven't touched
it since.
So I thought I'd wait for SuSE 7.2 before setting up
an up-to-date Linux on a new machine.
In any case, I shall keep my old SuSE 5.1 machine going,
since it works well for what I use it for.
Well, now I have SuSE 7.1 Professional by me, a brand-new
machine, and SuSE-7.1 apparently well installed (and it
did seem to go smoothly). Initial impression: pretty
nice, though too much eye-candy (I can particularly
do without the dancing penguin in Netscape, and I don't need
to see the SuSE splash screen in the boot-up terminal
either).
I adopted the standard "Default system with Office" plus
some extra packages I hand-picked from the package lists.
Nothing special there.
I haven't used it for much yet, but what I have tried
to do has not been too impressive. As follows.
Never mind that KWord is as buggy as hell, and simply silly
for real use. As a 0.9-beta it looks as though it's going
in the right direction; I shall watch it with interest;
and when it gets to a useful point I shall welcome that event.
And at any rate SuSE are nowhere claiming to recommend it.
1. One of the things I really want to do on the new machine is
write CDs, both for backup and since I handle large data
sets which are best archived on CDs. I've installed an ATAPI
CD/RW drive, and this is a new experience. Well, trying
"xcdroast" told me that I needed to set up SCSI emulation,
so I turned to the printed SuSE manuals for help.
The Applications manual has two chapters (8 & 9) on burning
CDs. They tell you how to do it, assuming that your CD is
installed and configured, but not how to do the latter.
Chapter 8 tells you to 'please read Chapter "CD-burner --
Configuration" in the Configuration manual.'
Chapter 9 tells you 'The chapter "Burning CDs in Linux"
in the Configuration Guide informs you of how to configure
your system for these purposes.'
Errr, excuse me, WHICH chapter[s] in the Configuration
Guide/Manual???
SUSE NOTE: There is nothing whatever about configuring CDs
in the Configuration manual.
SUSE NOTE: This is Not Professional.
Fortunately, I found in the suse-linux-e archives a brief
note from someone (to whom thanks) pointing out how to
do it [ add an extra boot image to /etc/lilo.conf which
duplicates the SUSE one, with the line 'append = "hdb=ide-scsi"
(or wherever your CD is) added; boot into that and load the
module "sg" and use /dev/sr0 instead of /dev/hdb ].
So I've now burned a few test CDs. I'm not going to grumble
(yet) about the fact that when I want to verify the tracks
it tells me "No info file found, cannot verify"; and when
doing "verify anyway" it tells me "incomplete read of last
track" even though I've made it pad; these things may be
due to my inexperience with the software. But, again, there's
nothing in the SuSE docs about such problems.
SUSE NOTE: At various stages in the above, I tried the SuSE
support database (English) and simply got a blank
web page. The German edition came up OK though.
2. In order to transfer data files between my old system and
the new one, I tried to start "ftp".
Initial response "connection refused".
Well, I do know my way round the inet stuff, so I went and
looked in the new /etc/inetd.conf.
SUSE NOTE: In inetd.conf, ftp is disabled by default. WHY ???
There is NOTHING in any of the printed manuals
which refers to such a situation. Indeed, almost
nothing about ftp at all ANYWHERE. And I don't recall
being prompted about whether I wanted ftp, during
the installation process. And YaST does not give you
access to it either. OK, I know my way around this one,
but what about an inexperienced user?
SUSE NOTE: I think this is Not Professional as well.
Next, uncommented good old "in.ftpd" in inet.conf, and restarted
inetd.
SUSE NOTE: The instructions in inetd.conf for restarting do not
work, since there is no /sbin/inet.d/inetd -- it is
/usr/sbin/inetd instead. Never mind, "killall -HUP inetd"
will do it, if you know that.
Well, this time I get access to the new machine by ftp. So, just
as a test, I do an "ls". Up it comes, the full directory listing.
Dot-files and all.
Along with a message
WARNING! 66 bare linefeeds received in ASCII mode
File may not have transferred correctly.
EH ???
This looks like a bug to me.
SUSE NOTE: in.ftpd has been around long enough for you to get it right.
SUSE NOTE: Again, I think this is Not Professional.
Finally, I re-commented in.ftps and uncommented proftpd. This time,
all seems well.
3. Now that ftp was working, the third thing I did was to transfer some
image files across, and open them using ImageMagick's "display", as
a test (all I wanted to do was to rotate them through 90 degrees).
So I ftp'd them across, then did "display *.jpg". Up it came;
very nice. Did the "rotate right" thing. Fine. Then went to
"File -> Save". Up comes the "Save" panel. Along with a suggested
filename in the appropriate box.
SUSE NOTE: This suggested filename was (I quote literally):
üpop® 4@'4@'¤ÿ;¿;̤ÿ® 4@'4@Ĥÿ¿Ü¤ÿ¿
This has to be a bug.
Well, at least I could delete all that garbage and enter a proper
name, and it worked. The same mess was repeated with the next
image file I tried.
========================================
At this point, I decided it was time to grumble about all this, hence
this message.
SUSE PLEASE PLEASE NOTE:
========================
I have tried to do just three things so far with the new SuSE 7.2
installation.
1. Get CD burning going. The printed SuSE documentation simply did not
have anything useful, despite (empty) claims in the documentation
that this could be found in the Configuration manual. I'm reserving
judgement for the moment about why it doesn't seem to be working
properly. Maybe it's my fault, maybe it isn't.
2. FTP. Found it initially disabled. Why? No help in the docs.
The standard in.ftp is buggy.
3. ImageMagick/display. Buggy.
So that's 2 out of 3 definitely buggy, possibly the third as well.
What sort of first impression is this, for a new system which I was
hoping to rely on for important work?
Do you have a reply to all this? If not, then please note that
I shall be dropping SuSE. I've spent enough time working round
the problems that come with your new version, from missing
documentation to buggy software.
You may say that the bugs I've stumbled on are trivial. Well,
I would agree, in these cases. But what about the possibility
of non-trivial bugs, which I shall stumble on when I least expect it
and -- above all -- least want it? First impressions are not
reassuring.
And I'm sorry about this. As I say, I've had a good time with
SuSE 5.1, and I have much enjoyed the SuSE list. But that doesn't
add up to a motivation for continuing with 7.2
In my view, "SuSE 7.2 Professional" is Not Professional.
With best wishes to all readers,
Ted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding)
Just a couple of comments (work time means I can't do more - sorry)
2. In order to transfer data files between my old system and the new one, I tried to start "ftp". SUSE NOTE: In inetd.conf, ftp is disabled by default. WHY ???
Probably because having FTP enabled by default is a security hole...
SUSE NOTE: The instructions in inetd.conf for restarting do not work, since there is no /sbin/inet.d/inetd -- it is /usr/sbin/inetd instead. Never mind, "killall -HUP inetd" will do it, if you know that.
Take another look, 2/1 it's /etc/init.d/inetd -- James Ogley Unix Systems Administrator, Pinnacle Insurance Plc james.ogley@pinnacle.co.uk www.pinnacle.co.uk +44 20 8731 3619 Using Free Software since 1994, running GNU/Linux (SuSE 7.x) This email was created and sent with Ximian Evolution 0.10 *********************************************************************** CONFIDENTIALITY. This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Pinnacle Insurance Plc. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify our Helpdesk on +44 (0) 20 8207 9555. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com **********************************************************************
* Ted Harding
1. One of the things I really want to do on the new machine is write CDs, both for backup and since I handle large data sets which are best archived on CDs. I've installed an ATAPI CD/RW drive, and this is a new experience. Well, trying "xcdroast" told me that I needed to set up SCSI emulation, so I turned to the printed SuSE manuals for help.
The Applications manual has two chapters (8 & 9) on burning CDs. They tell you how to do it, assuming that your CD is installed and configured, but not how to do the latter.
Chapter 8 tells you to 'please read Chapter "CD-burner -- Configuration" in the Configuration manual.'
Chapter 9 tells you 'The chapter "Burning CDs in Linux" in the Configuration Guide informs you of how to configure your system for these purposes.'
Errr, excuse me, WHICH chapter[s] in the Configuration Guide/Manual???
SUSE NOTE: There is nothing whatever about configuring CDs in the Configuration manual.
Suse 7.1 configuration guide chapter 11, writing CDs in Linux, pp 157 - 160 Suse 7.2 I only have the update manuals, but in the ``update'' manual it's at pp 133,134
2. In order to transfer data files between my old system and the new one, I tried to start "ftp".
Initial response "connection refused".
Well, I do know my way round the inet stuff, so I went and looked in the new /etc/inetd.conf.
SUSE NOTE: In inetd.conf, ftp is disabled by default. WHY ??? There is NOTHING in any of the printed manuals which refers to such a situation. Indeed, almost nothing about ftp at all ANYWHERE. And I don't recall
Que ?? Did you read the ``network'' manual that comes with suse 7.2 ? pp 107-120 are all about ftp. Those pages also tell you how to ionstall and configure ftp servers.
being prompted about whether I wanted ftp, during the installation process. And YaST does not give you access to it either. OK, I know my way around this one, but what about an inexperienced user?
yast does give you access to this. yast -> system Administration -> network configuration -> Configure network services
SUSE NOTE: I think this is Not Professional as well.
Next, uncommented good old "in.ftpd" in inet.conf, and restarted inetd.
SUSE NOTE: The instructions in inetd.conf for restarting do not work, since there is no /sbin/inet.d/inetd -- it is /usr/sbin/inetd instead. Never mind, "killall -HUP inetd" will do it, if you know that.
Well, this time I get access to the new machine by ftp. So, just as a test, I do an "ls". Up it comes, the full directory listing. Dot-files and all.
Along with a message WARNING! 66 bare linefeeds received in ASCII mode File may not have transferred correctly. EH ???
This looks like a bug to me.
No, read what it sais: in ascii mode bare linefeeds do get converted between Unix and PC, Unix and Mac &c &c ... Way to many people have wasted hour long downloads and got corrupted files because they forgot to turn on binary mode. Therefore the latest ftpd program has this warning in there ...
2. FTP. Found it initially disabled. Why? No help in the docs.
What docs did you get with your purchase ? Kind regards, -- Gerhard den Hollander Phone +31-10.280.1515 Global Technical Support Fax +31-10.280.1511 Jason Geosystems BV (When calling please note: we are in GMT+1) gdenhollander@jasongeo.com POBox 1573 visit us at http://www.jasongeo.com 3000 BN Rotterdam JASON.......#1 in Reservoir Characterization The Netherlands This e-mail and any attachment is/are intended solely for the named addressee(s) and may contain information that is confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, we request that you do not disseminate, forward, distribute or copy this e-mail message. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone and destroy the original message.
On Friday 06 July 2001 1:55 pm, Ted Harding wrote:
I hope the SuSE managers read this.
Having read this, I'd like to add/make a few comments in return.
I've also had SuSE 6.3 on another machine for the sake of libc6, though it didn't strike me as being as well put together as 5.1. Plus a tendency for "Kernel Oops" and freezing solid (though rarely).
For me, 6.3 and 6.4 were both pretty solid. I found 6.2 and 7.0 a bit flaky, but they still worked more or less from the off.
I haven't used it for much yet, but what I have tried to do has not been too impressive. As follows.
Never mind that KWord is as buggy as hell, and simply silly for real use. As a 0.9-beta it looks as though it's going in the right direction; I shall watch it with interest; and when it gets to a useful point I shall welcome that event. And at any rate SuSE are nowhere claiming to recommend it.
You might consider Koffice 1.1beta, which comes as standard with 7.2; I've never had any problems with it. That said, I don't use Kword much; vi suits my text-editing needs perfectly well.
Chapter 8 tells you to 'please read Chapter "CD-burner -- Configuration" in the Configuration manual.'
Chapter 9 tells you 'The chapter "Burning CDs in Linux" in the Configuration Guide informs you of how to configure your system for these purposes.'
Errr, excuse me, WHICH chapter[s] in the Configuration Guide/Manual???
SUSE NOTE: There is nothing whatever about configuring CDs in the Configuration manual.
SUSE NOTE: This is Not Professional.
Try Chapter 11 - "Writing CDs in Linux" - page 157 of the SuSE 7.1 Configuration Guide/Manual.
Fortunately, I found in the suse-linux-e archives a brief note from someone (to whom thanks) pointing out how to do it [ add an extra boot image to /etc/lilo.conf which duplicates the SUSE one, with the line 'append = "hdb=ide-scsi" (or wherever your CD is) added; boot into that and load the module "sg" and use /dev/sr0 instead of /dev/hdb ].
SLE is the best place to check for any problems you have, bar none.
SUSE NOTE: At various stages in the above, I tried the SuSE support database (English) and simply got a blank web page. The German edition came up OK though.
2. In order to transfer data files between my old system and the new one, I tried to start "ftp".
Initial response "connection refused".
Well, I do know my way round the inet stuff, so I went and looked in the new /etc/inetd.conf.
SUSE NOTE: In inetd.conf, ftp is disabled by default. WHY ???
How about the fact that ftp is a huge great security hole? (If you want to FTP, try using sftp instead, which is part of the openssh package.)
There is NOTHING in any of the printed manuals which refers to such a situation. Indeed, almost nothing about ftp at all ANYWHERE. And I don't recall being prompted about whether I wanted ftp, during the installation process. And YaST does not give you access to it either. OK, I know my way around this one, but what about an inexperienced user?
An inexperienced user can initiate ftp without inetd.conf being open, since inetd.conf governs the ports *you* share with the outside world. Is the average 'inexperienced user' going to want to run an ftp server? I don't think so; and you don't want these people to find out the hard way.
SUSE NOTE: I think this is Not Professional as well.
Each to their own. Zillions of script kiddies would love to find large numbers of boxes with ports 20 and 21 wide open; I think it's entirely professional to shut those ports by default.
SUSE PLEASE PLEASE NOTE: ======================== I have tried to do just three things so far with the new SuSE 7.2 installation.
Hang on. Your previous reference was to 7.1; furthermore, you seem to be using a version of Kword *older* than the one in 7.2. If it's not a silly question, are you using 7.1 or 7.2?
What sort of first impression is this, for a new system which I was hoping to rely on for important work?
Unusual. My home box is important; not only is it my PC, it is also a print and Samba server, as well as being a squid proxy and a firewall. It's never given me a moment's grief without my doing something to it first. And when it does go wrong (e.g. KDE 2.2beta1), then a quick scan of SLE will give me all the information I need to solve it without major downtime.
You may say that the bugs I've stumbled on are trivial. Well, I would agree, in these cases. But what about the possibility of non-trivial bugs, which I shall stumble on when I least expect it and -- above all -- least want it? First impressions are not reassuring.
Be a little more clear on what constitutes a 'bug' here. I don't use ImageMagick that much, but haven't noticed any real problems with it. The inetd issue is policy; and a sound one AFAIC. And the KWord I'm running with 7.2 is 1.1beta3, as per the usual 7.2 install.
And I'm sorry about this. As I say, I've had a good time with SuSE 5.1, and I have much enjoyed the SuSE list. But that doesn't add up to a motivation for continuing with 7.2
In my view, "SuSE 7.2 Professional" is Not Professional.
As a network and security professional, I'd disagree. cheers, Gideon Hallett. (no offence intended, of course.)
Gideon Hallett wrote:
Never mind that KWord is as buggy as hell, and simply silly for real use.
You might consider Koffice 1.1beta, which comes as standard with 7.2; I've never had any problems with it. That said, I don't use Kword much; vi suits my text-editing needs perfectly well.
well he's not talking about problems with vi! he is ssaying kword is virtually useless. And Id hardly think recommending "beta" software is a professional alternative
Try Chapter 11 - "Writing CDs in Linux" - page 157 of the SuSE 7.1 Configuration Guide/Manual.
Yes lets do that. Lets note the reference(pg 159) /sbin/init.d/boot.local there is no such file on a users system the correct file is /sbin/bootp but I suppose my mind reading ability's were a bit off when I was attemptig to read the "documentation" OR... better yet even if you follow all the doc and do your best at being clairvoint (unless you're realily good (OR HAVE A VAILD REFERENCE) you would know you also hve to put an "alias scsi_hostadapter ide-scsi" in /etc/modules.conf (I must have overlooked that somewhere....) OR look at pg 160 where it says if you have more than one cd you ln -sf /dev/scd0 /dev/cdrom (for their "Brenner burner" someone was smoking something there- but I digress) it says ln -sf /dev/scd0 /dev/cdrom and if yu have more than one cd which I would assume the case ln -sf /dev/scd0 /dev/cdrom1 so that says overwrite the first link with the second!! the configuration manual is written as if it were to a child.... most of their screen references to not jive. I suppose you could pass that crap off to a newbie because he;s thinking "well this makes sense to some one..." "I must have messed up my installion" that dosnt cut it though from someone is is fairly comfortable with suse linux ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ for the benfit of someone wanting to get their cd burner going do the following do a cat /var/boot.msg |grep hd > id_cd.txt identify your cdroms lets say hda & hdb open /etc/lilo.conf locate the line and add the hda= append="hda=ide-scsi hdb=ide-scsi" save and run lilo open /sbin/bootp go to the end of the file (to the line before exit 0) and add /sbin/modprobe ide-scsi next do ln -sf /dev/scd0 /dev/cdrom ln -sf /dev/scd1 /dev/cdrom1 next open /etc/modules.conf find the line scsi-hostadapter off remove off add scsi_hostadapter ide-scsi reboot do cat /var/boot.msg |grep hd >> id_cd.txt verify you have entries for the scsi devices lastly do a cat /proc/scsi/scsi you should see references to your cd, startx, pop in a music cd, start cdplayer you're all set! I concur with Ted, Suse really should do better quality control rather than constant releases. I was very disappointed by spending 70 for 7.1. The only comfort I have is I feel its tward a company who is trying to forward linux. Frankly Im not impressed with kde or much else. Its ok but *I* after 3 years expected something much more teased and in working order without having to re download all kinds of fixes. The release early and often is going to degrade the impression of linux if it is to be accepted by the average user. also IME 5.3 was the most stable version Ive ran rob
On Saturday 07 July 2001 08:22, rob wrote:
Try Chapter 11 - "Writing CDs in Linux" - page 157 of the SuSE 7.1 Configuration Guide/Manual.
Yes lets do that. Lets note the reference(pg 159) /sbin/init.d/boot.local there is no such file on a users system the correct file is /sbin/bootp
No, it's /etc/init.d/boot.local /sbin/bootp is a bootup script that gets run if you're booting with the bootp protocol. Generally, you shouldn't change system scripts unless it specifically says 'here is where you put your...'. The simple reason is that an upgrade will destroy your changes. Also, unless it's a simple home machine, it will make your successor/temp replacement's job that much more difficult.
but I suppose my mind reading ability's were a bit off when I was attemptig to read the "documentation"
OR... better yet
even if you follow all the doc and do your best at being clairvoint (unless you're realily good (OR HAVE A VAILD REFERENCE) you would know you also hve to put an "alias scsi_hostadapter ide-scsi" in /etc/modules.conf
(I must have overlooked that somewhere....)
OR look at pg 160 where it says if you have more than one cd you
ln -sf /dev/scd0 /dev/cdrom (for their "Brenner burner" someone was smoking something there- but I digress) it says ln -sf /dev/scd0 /dev/cdrom and if yu have more than one cd which I would assume the case ln -sf /dev/scd0 /dev/cdrom1 so that says overwrite the first link with the second!!
Not overwrite, but I get your point. It's a typo. It happens.
the configuration manual is written as if it were to a child.... most of their screen references to not jive. I suppose you could pass that crap off to a newbie because he;s thinking "well this makes sense to some one..." "I must have messed up my installion"
that dosnt cut it though from someone is is fairly comfortable with suse linux
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
for the benfit of someone wanting to get their cd burner going do the following
do a cat /var/boot.msg |grep hd > id_cd.txt
identify your cdroms lets say hda & hdb open /etc/lilo.conf locate the line and add the hda= append="hda=ide-scsi hdb=ide-scsi" save and run lilo
open /sbin/bootp go to the end of the file (to the line before exit 0) and add /sbin/modprobe ide-scsi next do
ln -sf /dev/scd0 /dev/cdrom ln -sf /dev/scd1 /dev/cdrom1
next
open /etc/modules.conf find the line scsi-hostadapter off remove off add scsi_hostadapter ide-scsi
reboot
do cat /var/boot.msg |grep hd >> id_cd.txt
verify you have entries for the scsi devices
lastly do a cat /proc/scsi/scsi
you should see references to your cd, startx, pop in a music cd, start cdplayer you're all set!
I concur with Ted, Suse really should do better quality control rather than constant releases. I was very disappointed by spending 70 for 7.1. The only comfort I have is I feel its tward a company who is trying to forward linux. Frankly Im not impressed with kde or much else. Its ok but *I* after 3 years expected something much more teased and in working order without having to re download all kinds of fixes. The release early and often is going to degrade the impression of linux if it is to be accepted by the average user.
also IME 5.3 was the most stable version Ive ran
rob
On Saturday 07 July 2001 6:22 am, rob wrote:
Gideon Hallett wrote:
Never mind that KWord is as buggy as hell, and simply silly for real use.
You might consider Koffice 1.1beta, which comes as standard with 7.2; I've never had any problems with it. That said, I don't use Kword much; vi suits my text-editing needs perfectly well.
well he's not talking about problems with vi! he is ssaying kword is virtually useless.
I wasn't talking about problems with vi either. I was merely making the point that I don't use KWord a huge amount, since word processing is not something I do a lot of. The point you're missing is that he mentioned that he used KWord 0.9beta. That isn't the version that comes with 7.2; so which version is he using?
And Id hardly think recommending "beta" software is a professional alternative
Each to their own; but any Linux distro comes with a large amount of beta software. If you don't want to try any of it, then you're missing out in my opinion. (e.g. 7.0 contained a 2.4 test kernel to play with, despite it being 'beta'. And in 7.2's case, KWord is a 1.1 beta - *not* a 0.9 beta. There's a lot of difference between a prerelease beta and a pre-revision beta.)
Try Chapter 11 - "Writing CDs in Linux" - page 157 of the SuSE 7.1 Configuration Guide/Manual.
Yes lets do that. Lets note the reference(pg 159) /sbin/init.d/boot.local there is no such file on a users system the correct file is /sbin/bootp
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's /etc/init.d/boot.local. When SuSE started implementing the LSB FHS, the boot files got moved from /sbin/init.d to /etc/init.d When I went looking for it first, I couldn't find it; so I did 'find -name boot.local' in the root directory, which found it immediately.
but I suppose my mind reading ability's were a bit off when I was attemptig to read the "documentation"
The documentation is always prone to this sort of thing; it's inherent in the nature of documentation that such things do happen occasionally. That's when you a) start a little prodding and b) consult SLE.
OR... better yet
even if you follow all the doc and do your best at being clairvoint (unless you're realily good (OR HAVE A VAILD REFERENCE) you would know you also hve to put an "alias scsi_hostadapter ide-scsi" in /etc/modules.conf
(I must have overlooked that somewhere....)
OR look at pg 160 where it says if you have more than one cd you
ln -sf /dev/scd0 /dev/cdrom (for their "Brenner burner" someone was smoking something there- but I digress)
'brenner' is the German for 'burner'.
it says ln -sf /dev/scd0 /dev/cdrom and if yu have more than one cd which I would assume the case ln -sf /dev/scd0 /dev/cdrom1 so that says overwrite the first link with the second!!
the configuration manual is written as if it were to a child....
Never bothered with it anyway. The Handbook has far more information on the nuts and bolts.
most of their screen references to not jive. I suppose you could pass that crap off to a newbie because he;s thinking "well this makes sense to some one..." "I must have messed up my installion"
that dosnt cut it though from someone is is fairly comfortable with suse linux
I would say that someone comfortable with SuSE would *know* that the documentation suffered a bit in publishing and translation. The manuals aren't perfect. We all know this. That's why things like SLE and installation support exist; to help people who have tried to set things up and failed.
I concur with Ted, Suse really should do better quality control rather than constant releases. I was very disappointed by spending 70 for 7.1.
I would rather have a distro that *is* cutting-edge (if wanted). That's why I moved from Debian to SuSE in the first place; slink (Debian 2.1) was pretty much obsolete by its release date, IMO. (That was prior to the general release of apt-get, which remedied the situation a lot, but that's another story.) If you want a rock-solid SuSE using 'safe' tools only, you can still do it with 7.2; just don't bother with KDE or Gnome.
The only comfort I have is I feel its tward a company who is trying to forward linux. Frankly Im not impressed with kde or much else. Its ok but *I* after 3 years expected something much more teased and in working order without having to re download all kinds of fixes.
I think you're being a little harsh here. If you compare 7.2 to 6.2, I know which one I find to be the more reliable and stable. Part of the really great thing about GNU/Linux is that you *do* have to fix things occasionally. Fixing things helps you understand them better. I understand that this might not be the view of a complete newbie; but I've never come across any completely intractable problem that *couldn't* be solved without the application of a bit of effort and thought.
The release early and often is going to degrade the impression of linux if it is to be accepted by the average user.
also IME 5.3 was the most stable version Ive ran
If you really want a retro treat, I've got a copy of Slackware 1.3 that you're welcome to...! cheers, Gideon.
On 07-Jul-01 Gideon Hallett wrote:
On Saturday 07 July 2001 6:22 am, rob wrote:
Gideon Hallett wrote: well he's not talking about problems with vi! he is ssaying kword is virtually useless.
The point you're missing is that he mentioned that he used KWord 0.9beta.
That isn't the version that comes with 7.2; so which version is he using?
I'm saving a possible general reply till this discussion has run
its course, but I will respond to this particular point.
On the box, and on the CDs inside, it says "SuSE LINUX 7.2 Professional".
In the linux I installed off these, I start "kword" and, after clicking
"OK" to choose document type, clicking on "Help" results in the display
of:
KWord 0.9 (beta1) (Using KDE 2.1.2)
KOffice Word Processor
(c) 1998-2000, Reginald Stadlbauer
I cannot find any other "internal" evidence of the KWord version number
(e.g. "strings" on the "kword" binary gives nothing).
So, on that basis, I said it was a "0.9-beta".
Of course, it is part of KOffice, and the rpm for KOffice on CD2 is
called
koffice-1.1beta1-24.i386.rpm
so the version of KOffice is presumably 1.1-beta-24.
Are we talking at cross-purposes about version of KWord versus
version of KOffice?
Or do you, when you start KWord from _your_ SuSE-7.2, get a different
version announcement when you click on "Help" in KWord?
If the latter, then you and I have different CDs for SuSE-7.2!
Thanks,
Ted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding)
On Saturday 07 July 2001 2:56 pm, Ted Harding wrote:
On 07-Jul-01 Gideon Hallett wrote:
On Saturday 07 July 2001 6:22 am, rob wrote:
Gideon Hallett wrote: well he's not talking about problems with vi! he is ssaying kword is virtually useless.
The point you're missing is that he mentioned that he used KWord 0.9beta.
That isn't the version that comes with 7.2; so which version is he using?
I'm saving a possible general reply till this discussion has run its course, but I will respond to this particular point.
On the box, and on the CDs inside, it says "SuSE LINUX 7.2 Professional".
In the linux I installed off these, I start "kword" and, after clicking "OK" to choose document type, clicking on "Help" results in the display of:
KWord 0.9 (beta1) (Using KDE 2.1.2) KOffice Word Processor (c) 1998-2000, Reginald Stadlbauer
I get "KWord 1.1 (beta3) (Using KDE 2.1.2) KOffice Word Processor http://www.koffice.org/kword/ (c) 1998-2001, The KWord Team" Now, I'm not using the default 7.2-supplied version; I upgraded KOffice in line with KDE 2.2b1 a while back; but the version installed prior was 1.1beta1-24
I cannot find any other "internal" evidence of the KWord version number (e.g. "strings" on the "kword" binary gives nothing).
So, on that basis, I said it was a "0.9-beta".
Odd - as far as I'm aware, the oldest apps in KOffice (i.e. KWord and Kspread) have the same version number as the overall package - what does Kspread give?
Of course, it is part of KOffice, and the rpm for KOffice on CD2 is called
koffice-1.1beta1-24.i386.rpm
so the version of KOffice is presumably 1.1-beta-24.
Are we talking at cross-purposes about version of KWord versus version of KOffice?
Entirely possibly, I'm afraid.
Or do you, when you start KWord from _your_ SuSE-7.2, get a different version announcement when you click on "Help" in KWord?
If the latter, then you and I have different CDs for SuSE-7.2!
I think it's probably due to my upgrade of KOffice, truth be told. (that said, KWord 1.1b3 is actually fairly solid; I've been prodding it earlier today and it held up fine.) if there's anything I can do to help, please ask, cheers, Gideon.
On Saturday 07 July 2001 07:18, Gideon wrote:
I would say that someone comfortable with SuSE would *know* that the documentation suffered a bit in publishing and translation. The manuals aren't perfect. We all know this. That's why things like SLE and installation support exist; to help people who have tried to set things up and failed.
Yes, perhaps it is true that the manuals are not perfect, but that does not take away from the fact that they are very useful and well done. I bought Mandrake's so-called "Power pack" recently and it showed me how spoiled I have become by SuSE's great documentation. The Mandrake so-called manuals were just short of a complete mockery. I was shocked that such useless, trivial documentation would come in what they call a Power Pack. SuSE is on a completely different level, a world beyond Mandrake when it comes to documentation.
The only comfort I have is I feel its tward a company who is trying to forward linux. Frankly Im not impressed with kde or much else. Its ok but *I* after 3 years expected something much more teased and in working order without having to re download all kinds of fixes.
Yes, SuSE undoubtedly is a leader in advancing Linux. Regarding KDE, unlike you, I am very impressed with how far it has come in a short time. I have not had to download all kinds of fixes. The KDE version supplied with SuSE 7.2 is the best yet in my opinion. I find it is a pleasure to use. *************************************************** Powered by SuSE Linux 7.2 Professional KDE 2.1.2 KMail 1.2 Bryan S. Tyson bryantyson@earthlink.net ***************************************************
Hi All!
A little bit in to the discussion about which distribution is better.
Year ago I installed SuSE 6.4 in fact first time for me in Linux folds,
since than I feel like I`ve konquered the mountains somewhere out
there.Instalation was awful:
-no sound,had to buy another souncard
-the X it took me six months to figure it out,3dfx voodoo2 took another
three.
-endless woes with the printer,never solved fully.
-cdburner ,it took a month to solve and this went on and on.....
-every time a new update from SuSE website was installed it took 10 years of
my life away as it would not work or crash or stuff all dependencies.
THE POINT I`M MAKING !?! is
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last night in anticipation of SuSE 7.2 I had cleaned the hard drives .
Than had nothing to do so decided to try out free magazine copy of
Linux Mandrake 7.2.
-cdburner configured automatically without my intervention
-the X took 10 seconds
-the printer is a dream
-soundcard - typical Linux wouldn`t work but after 10 minutes of makin` around
it`s a very noisy box now.
However I`m missing the SuSE`s touch!
So what am I suppose to think?
Thank you SuSE for forcing me to dig deep and learn intrikacies of Linux and
infact computers themselfs because I would be still just a another point and
shoot err meaning click winbloze frustrated.
So see ya all Alan
Well I look at it this way, If everything worked like you say it does with Mandrake, how are you going to learn anything? I don't want EVERYTHING working on my box when I first install so I can learn how to set it up, configure it etc. What are you going to do if something on your mandrake box breaks? Your not going to know how to fix it, but then again, you are talking about SuSE 6.4. Have you tried SuSE 7.1? With SuSE 7.1 everything on my computer was automatically configured except my sound card. But at this point it didn't bother me because I already learned how to set up my hardware etc. I believe it should be fairly easy and not too hard to set up a linux box, but on the other hand, it shouldn't be so darn easy that you end up a dumb user like windows users. Sounds like thats the dirrection mandrake is heading. -- David M. ICQ: 96210352 AIM: dmcglone27 --------------------------- On Sunday 08 July 2001 02:13 am, Alan wrote:
Hi All! A little bit in to the discussion about which distribution is better. Year ago I installed SuSE 6.4 in fact first time for me in Linux folds, since than I feel like I`ve konquered the mountains somewhere out there.Instalation was awful: -no sound,had to buy another souncard -the X it took me six months to figure it out,3dfx voodoo2 took another three. -endless woes with the printer,never solved fully. -cdburner ,it took a month to solve and this went on and on..... -every time a new update from SuSE website was installed it took 10 years of my life away as it would not work or crash or stuff all dependencies. THE POINT I`M MAKING !?! is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Last night in anticipation of SuSE 7.2 I had cleaned the hard drives . Than had nothing to do so decided to try out free magazine copy of Linux Mandrake 7.2. -cdburner configured automatically without my intervention -the X took 10 seconds -the printer is a dream -soundcard - typical Linux wouldn`t work but after 10 minutes of makin` around it`s a very noisy box now. However I`m missing the SuSE`s touch! So what am I suppose to think? Thank you SuSE for forcing me to dig deep and learn intrikacies of Linux and infact computers themselfs because I would be still just a another point and shoot err meaning click winbloze frustrated. So see ya all Alan
Bryan is absolutely right. It is sometimes frustrating when the manuals are out-of-date - for example, the SuSE 7.0 manuals had a section on installing TV cards that was obsolete, since in that version the drivers had been put in the kernel and worked out of the box. Took me 3 hours to figure that out! But I suppose that is just an indication of how fast things are developing - it's very difficult to keep the docs up-to-date. The manuals with 7.2 are, IMO, a great leap forward. The Configuration and Applications manuals are packed with really useful "how-tos" on getting things going - I think that they are developing into models of how Linux should be documented for newcomers, ie focussing on the applications you can use with Linux, and not just on Linux itself. I also got MDK 8.0 just to see what it was like, and, as Bryan says, the manuals aren't anywhere in the same league as SuSE's - the Reference manual was quite interesting, but a new user would want a lot more info. Kevin On Saturday 07 July 2001 9:35 pm, Bryan Tyson wrote:
On Saturday 07 July 2001 07:18, Gideon wrote:
I would say that someone comfortable with SuSE would *know* that the documentation suffered a bit in publishing and translation. The manuals aren't perfect. We all know this. That's why things like SLE and installation support exist; to help people who have tried to set things up and failed.
Yes, perhaps it is true that the manuals are not perfect, but that does not take away from the fact that they are very useful and well done.
I bought Mandrake's so-called "Power pack" recently and it showed me how spoiled I have become by SuSE's great documentation. The Mandrake so-called manuals were just short of a complete mockery. I was shocked that such useless, trivial documentation would come in what they call a Power Pack. SuSE is on a completely different level, a world beyond Mandrake when it comes to documentation.
KD> Bryan is absolutely right. It is sometimes frustrating when the manuals are KD> out-of-date - for example, the SuSE 7.0 manuals had a section on installing KD> TV cards that was obsolete, since in that version the drivers had been put in KD> the kernel and worked out of the box. Took me 3 hours to figure that out! KD> But I suppose that is just an indication of how fast things are developing - KD> it's very difficult to keep the docs up-to-date. The manuals with 7.2 are, KD> ... Are the manuals in HTML or PDF format online anywhere? Thank you. DJ
On Monday 09 July 2001 07:31 am, DJ wrote:
Are the manuals in HTML or PDF format online anywhere?
Or is it possible to disseminate patches to the files on our hard disks? Apropos of manuals, I find myslef stumbling over the language sometimes. Who edits the manuals for Englishness and colloquiality? Does SuSE need help? -- Bob Rea Fear of Hell is pernicious; So is fear of Heaven. rear@sirius.com http://www.sirius.com/~rear
Apropos of manuals, I find myslef stumbling over the language sometimes. Who edits the manuals for Englishness and colloquiality? Does SuSE need help?
The italian version has the same problem. Sometimes I have found that they forgot to translate from german some pages, or that they like using new (created by suse) italian words. If Suse needs some help about italian manuals I am here! (But I cant translate from German, sorry). Tazio :-)
On Sunday 08 July 2001 09:47, you wrote: > Bryan is absolutely right. It is sometimes frustrating when the > manuals are out-of-date - for example, the SuSE 7.0 manuals had a > section on installing TV cards that was obsolete, since in that version > the drivers had been put in the kernel and worked out of the box. Took > me 3 hours to figure that out! But I suppose that is just an indication > of how fast things are developing - it's very difficult to keep the > docs up-to-date. The manuals with 7.2 are, IMO, a great leap forward. The printed manuals are one of the reasons I choose Suse. Keeping them matched to the changes in the current distribution is key. My biggest complaint with Suse as a desktop user is the constant files to modify to get a CD-Writer and Zip to work. Maybe they will buy a copy of Mandrake and look at how they have been doing it for the last 3 or 4 distributions of their installer. It sets the EIDE CD-Writer and Zip Drives working with icons from the install. The truetype fonts another task Mandrake does from a menu that takes the Windows fonts (if you have a dual OS) or a dir and installs them. In the new Suse 7.2 install of the CD-Writer they tell you to modify the /etc/modules.conf. Seen this new line in my boot messages etc/modules.conf is more recent than /lib/modules/2.4.4-4GB/modules.dep Well I gave cdrecord -scanbus a shot anyhow, no CD-Writer showed up. Restored my original modules.conf file and looked back at my notes from 7.1. Went into /etc/init.d/boot.local and added the /sbin/modprobe ide-scsi, this worked. The initial Suse install sets up the CD-W icon on the desktop as a cdrecorder. If you follow the directions in the book for the link it changes it to a cdrom. Click on the new link you get an error message. You have to change the device in properties from cdrecorder to cdrom to get it to work following the book. A user with a little experience can get around all this stuff, but I still think it's one pain. I'm sure a newbie into Suse will find all this a problem compared to other Linux distributions or windows. John
Greetings all, I've just taken delivery of 7.2 Professional (it's only JUST arrived in this country !!), and was wondering if anyone has any useful insights to share regarding UPGRADING from 7.0/7.1 to 7.2, as opposed to a fresh install. When I ttempted to upgrade one of my machines from 7.0 to 7.1 it al went horribly pear-shaped, and needed to be blown away and done from scratch. This I would like to avoid, especially loosing all my KDE settings, etc. on my main workstation. My server is still running 7.0, and my firewall is on 7.1. Thanks... Jon -------------------------------------------------------- "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to usiing Microsoft products in mission-critical applications"... What Yoda really meant to say... --------------------------------------------------------
participants (15)
-
Alan -
Anders Johansson -
Bob Rea -
Bryan Tyson -
David McGlone -
delphitech -
Gerhard den Hollander -
Gideon Hallett -
James Ogley -
John Murphy -
jon＠fl.net.au -
Kevin Donnelly -
rob -
Tazio Ceri -
Ted.Harding＠nessie.mcc.ac.uk