[opensuse] Word for all of us.............
"Users can solve that problem, though," Diedrich says, with the help of the Internet, since the Linux community is happy to provide fellow users with help. That's why Diedrich recommends going online before selecting a Linux distribution and checking out the corresponding community. Are the people who use a given distribution ready to help, or more arrogant techno-geeks? http://www.technewsworld.com/story/56912.html -- If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words. If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson. "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." Thomas Jefferson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Fred A. Miller wrote:
"Users can solve that problem, though," Diedrich says, with the help of the Internet, since the Linux community is happy to provide fellow users with help. That's why Diedrich recommends going online before selecting a Linux distribution and checking out the corresponding community. Are the people who use a given distribution ready to help, or more arrogant techno-geeks?
This is very unhelpful. It is misleading to suggest that Linux support fora are unlimited sources of help and assistance. There are (or should be if provision of support is to be sustainable) constraints on what is expected to be asked and what kind of answers can be given. If a user isn't willing to get their hands dirty and make some effort to resolve problems they have for themselves, they should either pay for support (via Novell/SuSE, or perhaps a local firm of the sort M Harris seems to run) or not be surprised or upset when it doesn't work. This is true of all computer systems, in fact. Judging distributions (or operating systems) by how "civil" or "friendly" the mailing lists and fora are is a silly idea, and will only benefit people who "make nice" in order to shift products. From http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#courtesy Which is where, IMO, pretty much all quests for (free) technical help by newbies should start. "Be courteous. ... To be honest, this isn't as important as (and cannot substitute for) being grammatical, clear, precise and descriptive, avoiding proprietary formats etc.; /hackers in general would rather get somewhat brusque but technically sharp bug reports than polite vagueness/. (If this puzzles you, remember that we value a question by what it teaches us.)" And http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#keepcool "Dealing with rudeness Much of what looks like rudeness in hacker circles is not intended to give offence. Rather, it's the product of the direct, cut-through-the-bullshit communications style that is natural to people who are more concerned about solving problems than making others feel warm and fuzzy. When you perceive rudeness, try to react calmly. If someone is really acting out, it is very likely a senior person on the list or newsgroup or forum will call him or her on it. If that /doesn't/ happen and you lose your temper, it is likely that the person you lose it at was behaving within the hacker community's norms and /you/ will be considered at fault. This will hurt your chances of getting the information or help you want. On the other hand, you will occasionally run across rudeness and posturing that is quite gratuitous. The flip-side of the above is that it is acceptable form to slam real offenders quite hard, dissecting their misbehaviour with a sharp verbal scalpel. Be very, very sure of your ground before you try this, however. The line between correcting an incivility and starting a pointless flame war is thin enough that hackers themselves not infrequently blunder across it; if you are a newbie or an outsider, your chances of avoiding such a blunder are low. If you're after information rather than entertainment, it's better to keep your fingers off the keyboard than to risk this. " There are far more important criteria for choosing a distribution than how nicey-nicey people are. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 11:13, Russell Jones wrote:
There are far more important criteria for choosing a distribution than how nicey-nicey people are. This is very true ...
... and very wrong. At this point in time the openSUSE distro is "better" for several technical reasons than Ubuntu (I have objectively compared both and the state-of-the-art definitely favors openSUSE at this point in time) however, the Ubuntu "community" is bending over backwards to make "people" feel warm and fuzzy all over to get them to consider switching over (yes to FOSS) from M$ to Linux. "People" feel good about Ubuntu... is it the best distro? NO. Is it the number (1) ONE distro... Yes. (you do the math) Fred's point is very helpful, if you can get past your arrogance long enough to get your head (and heart) around it. -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
M Harris wrote:
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 11:13, Russell Jones wrote:
There are far more important criteria for choosing a distribution than how nicey-nicey people are. This is very true ...
... and very wrong.
At this point in time the openSUSE distro is "better" for several technical reasons than Ubuntu (I have objectively compared both and the state-of-the-art definitely favors openSUSE at this point in time) however, the Ubuntu "community" is bending over backwards to make "people" feel warm and fuzzy all over to get them to consider switching over (yes to FOSS) from M$ to Linux. "People" feel good about Ubuntu... is it the best distro? NO. Is it the number (1) ONE distro... Yes. (you do the math)
Fred's point is very helpful, if you can get past your arrogance long enough to get your head (and heart) around it.
Just for curiosity: How did you objectively compare the two and what made suse better? I am working with both and, seriously, I cannot say, which is objectively better. Even from a subjective view, I fear, I cannot tell. regards Eberhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 14:45, Eberhard Roloff wrote:
Just for curiosity: How did you objectively compare the two and what made suse better?
I am working with both and, seriously, I cannot say, which is objectively better. Even from a subjective view, I fear, I cannot tell. The drivers are not as complete in Ubuntu... I have hardware that will not load Ubuntu... openSUSE loads just fine.
Yast makes the Ubuntu installer look like a rock... and frankly... the Yast installer is more intuitive, better organized, better automated, and more reliable... so far in my experience. openSUSE is way more complete... and what I mean by that is that it ships with far more packages. Yeah, yeah, Ubuntu ships on one CD... big deal. And unless you go with Kubuntu, the gnome desktop experience of Ubuntu as objectively compared with the kde experience of openSUSE is disappointing. Not to mention that the base distro of openSUSE gives the user the choice of desktops... Ubuntu has just one... and its not the best. And this is my personal favorite... after I loaded Ubuntu (forgetting to load gcc at install time) I went back and installed gcc from the install media... and then compiled "hello world" with terrible errors... libs not found. After manually installing and installing and installing I finally got all the pieces installed to successfully compile "hello world". Forget to install gcc in Yast... no big deal... simply select the category and go... correctly finds all dependencies, pieces parts, and installs no hits no runs to errors.... and "hello world" compiles the first time. I guess this is just another Yast kudo. There is more desktop/system integration in openSUSE. I know that much of this is kde, but a great deal of this is the touches openSUSE has made to the desktop, yast, control panel, utilities and so forth... its just more seamless... and yet its very intuitive and easily customized. Well, ok, some of this is subjective on my part... ;-) -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
M Harris wrote:
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 14:45, Eberhard Roloff wrote:
Just for curiosity: How did you objectively compare the two and what made suse better?
I am working with both and, seriously, I cannot say, which is objectively better. Even from a subjective view, I fear, I cannot tell. The drivers are not as complete in Ubuntu... I have hardware that will not load Ubuntu... openSUSE loads just fine.
Yast makes the Ubuntu installer look like a rock... and frankly... the Yast installer is more intuitive, better organized, better automated, and more reliable... so far in my experience.
openSUSE is way more complete... and what I mean by that is that it ships with far more packages. Yeah, yeah, Ubuntu ships on one CD... big deal.
And unless you go with Kubuntu, the gnome desktop experience of Ubuntu as objectively compared with the kde experience of openSUSE is disappointing. Not to mention that the base distro of openSUSE gives the user the choice of desktops... Ubuntu has just one... and its not the best.
And this is my personal favorite... after I loaded Ubuntu (forgetting to load gcc at install time) I went back and installed gcc from the install media... and then compiled "hello world" with terrible errors... libs not found. After manually installing and installing and installing I finally got all the pieces installed to successfully compile "hello world". Forget to install gcc in Yast... no big deal... simply select the category and go... correctly finds all dependencies, pieces parts, and installs no hits no runs to errors.... and "hello world" compiles the first time. I guess this is just another Yast kudo.
There is more desktop/system integration in openSUSE. I know that much of this is kde, but a great deal of this is the touches openSUSE has made to the desktop, yast, control panel, utilities and so forth... its just more seamless... and yet its very intuitive and easily customized. Well, ok, some of this is subjective on my part... ;-)
Thanks much for explanation. I fully agree with your gnome findings. Therefore I also must admit, that "Ubuntu" for me always means either _K_ubuntu for recent hardware or _X_ubuntu for older beloved treasure. Please accept my apologies for confusion. So it's Kubuntu vs. OpenSuse, where I find the Desktop Experience to be pretty similar. Back to work and thanks again Eberhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Yast makes the Ubuntu installer look like a rock... and frankly... the Yast installer is more intuitive, better organized, better automated, and more reliable... so far in my experience.
This was a big deal breaker for me when I experimented with Kubuntu and Ubuntu late last year. The installer that Ubuntu uses is nice, but in the end the SUSE one wins no questions. For example there is a real nasty installer bug in 6.10 that pops up when you try to change the partitioning scheme on install (you know how the guessed partitioning scheme is never what you want). It looses track of the / partition, and won't let you install because it thinks you haven't assigned a root partition. The work around is to tinker in some file somewhere and remove the root partition check routine. Not nice at all for a new user.
And this is my personal favorite... after I loaded Ubuntu (forgetting to load gcc at install time) I went back and installed gcc from the install media...
I ran into the exact same problems with other apps... and with gcc in Ubuntu. Although it was a lot more pleasing to the eye and brain to use Synaptic (vs Smart) to find and install software, I often got broken stuff.. like the GCC thing. The organization of apache is another one that annoyed me. It is a no-brainer to setup a basic webserver in SUSE, and was a pain in Ubuntu. Also configuring my monitor and video drivers (nVidia) was 10 times more hassle than with SUSE.
There is more desktop/system integration in openSUSE.
This is a big one. SUSE is simply more "professional" and polished. Even Mr. Shuttleworth recently admitted one of the big things really missing in Ubuntu was a nice integrated system management tool (like YAST). This is not to say that Ubuntu is a bad distribution. It has some excellent qualities about it. It's a solid distribution, and if someone wants to try out Linux for the first time, I have no fear of suggesting they experiment with Ubuntu. If they want a professional installation though, SUSE wins hands down. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2007-04-18 at 14:09 -0500, M Harris wrote:
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 11:13, Russell Jones wrote:
There are far more important criteria for choosing a distribution than how nicey-nicey people are. This is very true ...
... and very wrong.
At this point in time the openSUSE distro is "better" for several technical reasons than Ubuntu (I have objectively compared both and the state-of-the-art definitely favors openSUSE at this point in time) however, the Ubuntu "community" is bending over backwards to make "people" feel warm and fuzzy all over to get them to consider switching over (yes to FOSS) from M$ to Linux. "People" feel good about Ubuntu... is it the best distro? NO. Is it the number (1) ONE distro... Yes. (you do the math)
It's not just the warm fuzzies, it's also in how the community creates scripts for packages of non-OSS stuff or even the dread multimedia stuff, or <gasp> Web-Cam stuff. Ubuntu is shooting for the easy to establish desktop and use desktop, the rest of us can take a page or two from their note-book.
Fred's point is very helpful, if you can get past your arrogance long enough to get your head (and heart) around it.
-- Kind regards,
M Harris <><
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Mike McMullin wrote:
On Wed, 2007-04-18 at 14:09 -0500, M Harris wrote:
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 11:13, Russell Jones wrote:
It's not just the warm fuzzies, it's also in how the community creates scripts for packages of non-OSS stuff or even the dread multimedia stuff, or <gasp> Web-Cam stuff. Ubuntu is shooting for the easy to establish desktop and use desktop, the rest of us can take a page or two from their note-book.
I agree with this. But it's not the advice that was given to users. That was (more or less) "choose the distro that gives you warm fuzzies". But again, it needs to be sustainable. Thus incentives for this are required beyond "look, distro X is doing Y". Also, this is a management issue rather than a developer one. Though of course, many developers make such decisions themselves. I've compared the stated management positions below: What are the objectives for Open Suse? From http://en.opensuse.org/Project_overview (with editing to break down the objectives a bit) 1. Make openSUSE the easiest Linux distribution for anyone to obtain 2. Make openSUSE the most widely used open source platform 3. Provide an environment for open source collaboration 4. Make openSUSE the best Linux distribution for new users 5. Make openSUSE the best Linux distribution for experienced Linux users 6. Simplify and open the development and packaging processes to make openSUSE the platform of choice for Linux hackers and application developers So this comes under point 4. ISTM that Open Suse values ease of use for newbies more than, say, Debian, Gentoo or Slackware. Interestingly, Debian makes guarantees, rather than having objectives. Some of the "guarantees" are subjective, so are similar to Open Suse's objectives. 1. *Debian will remain 100% free* 2. *We will give back to the free software community* 3. *We will not hide problems* 4. *Our priorities are our users and free software* We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software community. We will place their interests first in our priorities. We will support the needs of our users for operation in many different kinds of computing environments. We will not object to non-free works that are intended to be used on Debian systems, or attempt to charge a fee to people who create or use such works. We will allow others to create distributions containing both the Debian system and other works, without any fee from us. In furtherance of these goals, we will provide an integrated system of high-quality materials with no legal restrictions that would prevent such uses of the system. 5. *Works that do not meet our free software standards [will be provided separately] * The Debian statement is targeted at existing users, and makes no mention of newbies (that I could see). Ubuntu seem to be so popular that their site is down ;-) So I can't compare their objectives with those of the other projects. So do you think point four should be point three, two or one? Or are the ability to obtain the distribution, its widest use and its best development more important than making it welcoming to newbies? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 18 April 2007, M Harris wrote:
At this point in time the openSUSE distro is "better" for several technical reasons than Ubuntu
That is debatable. Better for what? For Ma and Pa Polyester, I would still recommend Kubuntu over suse. For a server, or a workstation for a competent user, I'd go with OpenSuse. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
M Harris wrote:
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 11:13, Russell Jones wrote:
There are far more important criteria for choosing a distribution than how nicey-nicey people are.
This is very true ...
... and very wrong.
At this point in time the openSUSE distro is "better" for several technical reasons than Ubuntu (I have objectively compared both and the state-of-the-art definitely favors openSUSE at this point in time) however,
That's a moot point.
the Ubuntu "community" is bending over backwards to make "people" feel warm and fuzzy all over to get them to consider switching over (yes to FOSS) from M$ to Linux. How is it doing this? Or is it just a perception? Is it sustainable? That is, are users going to become disillusioned when these contortions cease, as they must if they are such? "People" feel good about Ubuntu... is it the best distro? NO. Is it the number (1) ONE distro... Yes. (you do the math)
This is more to do with PR. Development of technical features are not PR. Are technical lists for technical discussion, or for PR? Or both? If so, how would that work? I think the latter creates inappropriate expectations.
Fred's point is very helpful, if you can get past your arrogance long enough to get your head (and heart) around it.
You mistake pragmatism for arrogance. FWIWTTD, I'm a Christian myself, but open source is not based on unconditional charity. It's based on perceived mutual benefit. Ignorant, lazy users with expectations of automatic entitlement (a subset, of course) provide little or no benefit that I can perceive, unless they pay their way. Ignorant, engaged users who are willing to help out as much as they can are a different matter. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
How is it doing this? Or is it just a perception? Is it sustainable? That is, are users going to become disillusioned when these contortions cease, as they must if they are such? Yes, some of it is perception... that's the art of marketing. What I am about to say is not *critical* so please no one flame me... (nor swear at me,
On Thursday 19 April 2007 04:38, Russell Jones wrote: please)... its just a perception point... take the icon for openSUSE (which I love, by the way) of the little chameleon lizard... "simply change" ... this is cute and to the point... but its also reptilian... and people don't like change... and chameleons are not very friendly... on the other hand take a look at the Ubuntu logo... a circle of different colored people holding hands making a unit and being friends and fostering community... and they have two versions of this logo... one is graphical and the other is (from above) actual people looking up holding hands in a circle... an "ubuntu" (people together) community. One of the logos is friendly (read warm and fuzzy human marketing appeal) and the other one is geeky. Please dont flame me--- I love my lizard stickers... and in fact I make them for my friends on my color printer... and when I install a system with openSUSE it has a little green lizard on the front that says, "simply change".... and "have lots of fun"... but hey (!) ... and this is the point... if I were a complete newbie looking things over and trying to decide who to trust and what to install... I would go with the folks with the warm and fuzzy human logo who have not signed a business pact with M$, and who never ever ever tell me to RTFM. I am not sure I would trust the little grean chameleon not to simply change back! And an international community of friends helping each other in a symbionic "ubuntu" would have a strong appeal for me... do yous guys see my point...??
This is more to do with PR. Development of technical features are not PR. Are technical lists for technical discussion, or for PR? Or both? If so, how would that work? I think the latter creates inappropriate expectations. Yup. But, technical lists (although for technical discussion) are a beautiful interface for public relations that are good for business... and good for community. Unless, of course, there is swearing, cursing, flaming, back-biting...
Fred's point is very helpful, if you can get past your arrogance long enough to get your head (and heart) around it.
You mistake pragmatism for arrogance. FWIWTTD, I'm a Christian myself, but open source is not based on unconditional charity. It's based on perceived mutual benefit. Ignorant, lazy users with expectations of automatic entitlement (a subset, of course) provide little or no benefit that I can perceive, unless they pay their way. When I worked development support for the AS/400 compilers (RPG, COBOL, C) back at IBM land I would have to answer some of the same mundane (read that stupid) questions and concerns over and over and over and for crying out loud it could be frustrating... but that's the art of technical dicussion and support... answering that same stupid question for the umpteenth time as though it was the first--- with the same enthusiasm, warmth, and concern as the very first client you ever helped... what happens all too frequently in the linux community, however, is that we're usually too geeky to go those extra miles with folks... particularly the really apparently dumb folks... or lazy folks... and all too often out of our mouths comes something really foul like RTFM. Instead, what the linux communities need to learn are some basic babysitting skills... gentle hand holding and coddling... and the community that does that the best will win.
Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
change... and chameleons are not very friendly... on the other hand take a look at the Ubuntu logo... a circle of different colored people holding hands
http://www.arouse.net/despair-linux/ubuntu.jpg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 19 April 2007 16:01, Druid wrote: Ok, equal time....
My mother hates lizards, she freaks out when she sees a pic of a real lizard on my SUSE desktop! :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 19 April 2007 16:35, Jan Karjalainen wrote:
My mother hates lizards, she freaks out when she sees a pic of a real lizard on my SUSE desktop! :-) My wife too...
... the kids and I all have the "real" chameleon wallpaper (its got to the the coolest desktop ever) and mom just can't see past it... -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 19 April 2007 16:35, Jan Karjalainen wrote:
My mother hates lizards, she freaks out when she sees a pic of a real lizard on my SUSE desktop! :-)
My wife too...
... the kids and I all have the "real" chameleon wallpaper (its got to the the coolest desktop ever) and mom just can't see past it... So put a bunny, or kitten, or some other thing that mom can love on her DT, after all, she gets to decorate her desktop too, no? ( pictures of teh grandkids will do it for some ;-) ) Once she gets the idea that
On Thu April 19 2007, M Harris scratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer: there are few "do it by gawd, because I SAID to (do it) in linux, after all most of us still have the Kmenu ( w/ "k" instead of lizard on it), for other reasons than cute. I find it more friendly, I have a buddy for whom the new Suse lizard menu is just absolutely the only way to go.. <shrug> if you have a small enough group of folks you need to maintain.. give em what makes em happy. I know for a fact a lot of folks I keep running just figured out they don't have Windows any more.. , most are happy... the rest don't care as long as it works ... -- j I've lived in the real world enough, we're all here because we ain't all there. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
M Harris wrote:
Yes, some of it is perception... that's the art of marketing. What I am about to say is not *critical* so please no one flame me... (nor swear at me, please)... its just a perception point... take the icon for openSUSE (which I love, by the way) of the little chameleon lizard... "simply change" ... this is cute and to the point... but its also reptilian... and people don't like change... and chameleons are not very friendly... It's not a chameleon, it's a geeko! ;-)
-- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
M Harris wrote:
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 11:13, Russell Jones wrote:
There are far more important criteria for choosing a distribution than how nicey-nicey people are.
This is very true ...
... and very wrong.
At this point in time the openSUSE distro is "better" for several technical reasons than Ubuntu (I have objectively compared both and the state-of-the-art definitely favors openSUSE at this point in time) however, the Ubuntu "community" is bending over backwards to make "people" feel warm and fuzzy all over to get them to consider switching over (yes to FOSS) from M$ to Linux. "People" feel good about Ubuntu... is it the best distro? NO. Is it the number (1) ONE distro... Yes. (you do the math)
Fred's point is very helpful, if you can get past your arrogance long enough to get your head (and heart) around it.
a) this is not Millers point he is quoting from another source, and b) using Distrowatch.com figures, although it has the most hits Ubantu is far from dominant (though I would personally regard the raw statistics as a little iffy). When people start talking about A being better than B it is is a fairly pointless conversation without a context, i A being better than B at task 1 is more useful. I think you are also missing Russells point somewhat. (Maybe it is difference of culture on both sides of the Atlantic pond). There is a distinction between touchy, feely, niceness and basic polite courtesy, the former is usually artificial (and usually sets my teeth on edge because at best I would interpret this as patronising ), the latter at least gives the recipient some initial respect . (BTW polite does not mean nice, I was had the responsibility for giving support for a group described by one my senior managers as one most politely vicious bunches of people he had ever met). As a criterion for making a technical decision how nice the people you are dealing with is very poor, what is more important whether can you trust them to deliver. In the I.T. world , the more time you spend dealing with recalcitrant piles of silicon and metal, and either the drivers or owners of said piles, or trying to make the things do something sensible, or both ... the crankier one is likely to become. Therefore there is a strong case for arguing the reverse, i.e. the more cantankerous an I.T related community is, the more likely they are to know what they are talking about. :-) (Present virtual company excepted .. of course :-! )
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On Thursday 19 April 2007 05:16, G.T.Smith wrote:
In the I.T. world , the more time you spend dealing with recalcitrant piles of silicon and metal, and either the drivers or owners of said piles, or trying to make the things do something sensible, or both ... the crankier one is likely to become. I think this should be written in stone somewhere.
Very good. :-)) "Crankiness is inversely proportional to the square of the distance of the IT professional to his client, and directly proportional to the distance the IT professional is to the recalcitrant piles of silicon and metal" :-))))) -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Clayton -
Druid -
Eberhard Roloff -
Fred A. Miller -
G.T.Smith -
James Knott -
Jan Karjalainen -
jfweber＠gilweber.com -
John Andersen -
M Harris -
Mike McMullin -
Russell Jones