-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jan Elders wrote:

On Sunday January 14 2007 19:22, Stevens wrote:

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"Cristian Rodriguez R." wrote:

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PEBCAK . all you telling us can be done with yast or with a simple tutorial, if you actually dont want to **get a clue ** about basic things of an OS, Im not sure if linux is the right choice for you. And therein lies the problem: the "look down your nose" attitude of most Linux nerds about the development of user-friendly tools and GUIs. There are vast numbers of computer owners out there who use M$ because it works for them without requiring much in the way of computer skills and until such time that a Linux distro comes along that offers the same ease of use, Linux will stay in the background.

Exactly ! When will the nerds wake-up ???

combining this with fred stevens mail kl. 19.22, which have a broad way of using his PC (nice Fred) and as I know a lot of yngsters use their PC to much more than playing games. To me it looks like the suse 10.2 have a lot of potential and too users nowadays are very creative in ways they use their PC's (like Fred's long list) and my point : the wiki's arent adequate for the new users; normal people wanting to use Linux as their OS. Tried politely to use a picture with the Linux wall, but didn't succed very much as the Use of Suse thread just were cut of by an "uebergeek" who continued the subject line, but geecked ahead on his own road. Maybe some good time lies ahead with many more wanting to have linux on their PC, and the uebergeckies maybe should make a small club with uebergecks only for those who like that, and otherwise be aware of things are changing with linux ?? things always change and maybe for the better ? :) Niels -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFqoZe0F77CaBDYxMRAgsZAJ9pTBAzeI9kpO3lO1MR3HPQvrC1VQCgoX9D 8owx1FuNgOrgowkbU3L4Yjg= =0TnZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday January 14 2007 19:42, Mathias Homann wrote: // snip

That means there are enough fools out there who still do not believe in the necessity of antivirus software for their windows systems. Why dont they? because they dont have a clue. Do we REALLY want more people like that on the 'net?

No, we don't. But they are just there and they won't go away. They are just a fact of life and they are the masses that bring the momentum to the widespread usage of W$ systems. -- Jan Elders the Netherlands http://www.xs4all.nl/~jrme/ "Home of the Network Acronyms" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mathias Homann escribió:

But there lies another problem: If we make linux as fool-friendly as windows, we get another windows. with the same problem that windows has.

The main problem is that people does not understand that Linux is not windows and will never be.

On 01/14/2007 Marc Wilson wrote:

Actually, the main problem is that people will never understand that there's no reason for Linux to be like Windows in the first place.

Actually, except the fact that the icons look funny, in everyday use it really isn't THAT different. [ IMHO ] -- (o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o) Billie Walsh The three best words in the English Language: "I LOVE YOU" Pass them on! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 07:49:45PM -0800, J Sloan wrote:

I agree about the icons looking funny, but I find it really different. For instance drive letters, LOL, what's that about?

I see no difference there myself... remember the drive letter, or remember where you mounted the partition. What's the difference? I find myself at work typing things like "/e/stuff/morestuff" when I meant "e:\stuff\morestuff" all the time. The paradigm just flows. :) -- Marc Wilson | It will be advantageous to cross the great stream msw@cox.net | ... the Dragon is on the wing in the Sky ... the | Great Man rouses himself to his Work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 14 January 2007 20:52, J Sloan wrote:

Marc Wilson wrote:

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On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 07:49:45PM -0800, J Sloan wrote: ...

I see no difference there myself... remember the drive letter, or remember where you mounted the partition. What's the difference?

The difference is, the windoze user would have to use the correct drive letter. And the backward slashes, they seem strange to me.

Windows doesn't care whether you use forward or backward slashes. They both work in most contexts.

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I find myself at work typing things like "/e/stuff/morestuff" when I meant "e:\stuff\morestuff" all the time. The paradigm just flows. :)

In linux, I let the tab key complete my sentences...

Get Cygwin (http://cygwin.com/). Your Linux habits will be well catered to there. It has symlinks, so you can (and I always do) set up links in / for the drive letters, just like your /e/stuff/... example. It has BASH so command completion is supported. There's a full complement of Gnu tools and lots of other open source packages. For those who must use Windows, Cygwin is de rigueur.

Joe

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 14 January 2007 21:06, J Sloan wrote:

Randall R Schulz wrote: ...

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Windows doesn't care whether you use forward or backward slashes. They both work in most contexts.

hmm, didn't know that changed. So it's sort of like the upper/lower case distinction - unix cares, and microsoft doesn't.

Actually, that's not strictly true, either, but while the forward vs. backward slash things is always available, case sensitivity is an option that has to be enabled--I forget if it's per-application or system-wide (Cygwin can enable it), but I think it's more trouble than it's worth.

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I find myself at work typing things like "/e/stuff/morestuff" when I meant "e:\stuff\morestuff" all the time. The paradigm just flows. :)

In linux, I let the tab key complete my sentences...

Get Cygwin (http://cygwin.com/). Your Linux habits will be well catered to there. It has symlinks, so you can (and I always do) set up links in / for the drive letters, just like your /e/stuff/... example. It has BASH so command completion is supported. There's a full complement of Gnu tools and lots of other open source packages.

Yeah, I've heard that mentioned in positive terms many times by those chained to windoze. But for me, there really wouldn't be much point. I do all my work and play in linux, by choice.

I thought you just said you use Windows at work... Oh, wait. I guess I'm misinterpreting the quoting. I guess my Cygwin recommendation is to Mark W.

Joe

RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

On 01/14/2007 J Sloan wrote:

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I agree about the icons looking funny, but I find it really different. For instance drive letters, LOL, what's that about? And one single desktop - bleh.

How many times a day do you even have to think about where something is on a harddrive, unless your using CLI exclusively. You click an icon, or a menu shortcut, the program opens. You do whatever and close the program. Click another icon. Not that much difference. Even click an icon to open a terminal "window".

In linux, I don't really think about where a command is - it's in the path, and it works, that's all I need to know. OTOH, editing files is an area where I appreciate not having to type some silly pee cee drive letter.

However, Linux does use a sort of drive letter. FD, HDA, HDB, etc. A, C, D, etc are shorter designations. Especially when you have to add the partition number, FD0, HDA1, HDA2, HDB1, HDB2, etc. It's all in how you keep track of them.

Not really. there are device entries such as /dev/hda, but why would you care? they are not part of the path. As an example, a unix file might be called ~/.profile, while on a peecee platform it would be something like C:\DOCUMENTS AND SETTINGS\PROFILE.INI

I do like the multiple desktops. If I get one to jammed up I can open the other and start over on a clean page. Kind of like the tabbed browsing in Konqueror and Firfox. It's a LOT easier, and more efficient, than having multiple iterations of the same program. It took Microsoft a long time to figure it out in IE.

I use 6 virtual kde desktops at work, and each of them has something specific going on - it would be painful and awkward to go back to the microsoft way of doing things. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Billie Erin Walsh wrote:

I do like the multiple desktops. If I get one to jammed up I can open the other and start over on a clean page. Kind of like the tabbed browsing in Konqueror and Firfox. It's a LOT easier, and more efficient, than having multiple iterations of the same program. It took Microsoft a long time to figure it out in IE.

It's not about "for Windows, against Linux" things, I still can't fully switch to Linux only because I can't get my winmodem work on it. But if you need multiple desktops under Windows you might take a look at http://www.dexpot.de/ Best, Sergey -- A----T Sergey Mkrtchyan, C---G Master Student, G-C Department Of Molecular Physics, T---A Faculty Of Physics, Yerevan State University A----T e-mail: mksergey[at]freenet[dot]am G---C web: http://users.freenet.am/~mksergey -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Billie Erin Walsh [01-14-07 23:47]: [...]

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The major differences I see are the file structure and how you install something. I have no clue where stuff is on the hard drives, [ there's bits, pieces, and copies of stuff all over the place ] but then I don't have to. The computer keeps track of all that stuff. Software installation is a whole other can of worms. There ain't a whole lot of standardization sometimes. RPM's are pretty much a no brainer, most of the time. Tar balls on the other hand. Well, lets just say ya better find that "readme" in there somewhere.

If using an rpm-based distro, searching for and reading the 'README' in a tar ball is definitely not enough. A tar ball install procedure knows nothing of the rpm structure and database and vice versa. Installing from tar ball will corrupt your rpm-based system, altering file structure and replacing/removing files necessary to other applications, perhaps to the point of a failed system.

At the very least, when installing a tar ball, checkinstall should be employed, UNLESS YOU ARE VERY KNOWLEDGABLE ABOUT LINUX STRUCTURE.

While this is technically true, the fact is that any official suse rpm packages install binaries in /usr/bin, /usr/sbin, etc. OTOH, tarball builds inevitably default to installing binaries in /usr/local/bin, /usr/local/sbin, etc, so there is no collision. According to old unix traditions, /usr/local is where non-vendor stuff is installed. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* J Sloan [01-15-07 15:16]: [...]

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While this is technically true, the fact is that any official suse rpm packages install binaries in /usr/bin, /usr/sbin, etc. OTOH, tarball builds inevitably default to installing binaries in /usr/local/bin, /usr/local/sbin, etc, so there is no collision. According to old unix traditions, /usr/local is where non-vendor stuff is installed.

But you only address a very small segment. You do not consider the libraries, configuration files, and maintaining the rpm database. The statement I made is very solid.

Actually I do consider: the libraries -> /usr/local/lib the config files -> /usr/local/etc But the rpm database is not a factor here since this is all outside the scope of the rpm database. Unlike windoze with the registry, Linux will still run and function even if the rpm database is nuked, but I agree that it's best to maintain its integrity, for manageability purposes. I try to always use rpms, or to build them from the source whenever practical, but in some cases, it's quickest to just allow a self compiled app to live in /usr/local. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 15 January 2007 15:00, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* J Sloan [01-15-07 17:31]:

At the very least, when installing a tar ball, checkinstall should be employed, UNLESS YOU ARE VERY KNOWLEDGABLE ABOUT LINUX STRUCTURE.

Take it from someone that used to tar ball all the time and seriously kludge his system - Checkinstall has saved my arse many time ever since I've discovered it utility, and for the exact same reason that Patrick mentions. Nothing like trying to hunt down various versions libs and other kludged dependencies. This is especially true if you don't use the proper and "specific" compile flags - they can get pretty convoluted very quickly. Checkinstall makes it a lot easier to fix problems and keep the rpm database coherent. Cheers, Curtis. -- Spammers Beware: Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again! I don't want a politician I can believe in. I simply want a politician I can believe! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 15 January 2007 15:39, Michael Nelson wrote:

On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 03:39:00PM -0800, Curtis Rey wrote:

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Checkinstall makes it a lot easier to fix problems and keep the rpm database coherent.

It is especially critical that people who top post use checkinstall. ;-)

Michael

Ya had to do it. Had to go and start a flame war? Had to digress the subject and redirect it to an issue other than solving the problem and create a new one? That's the way to stay on subject and help!!! Great job - so I guess it's.... Let the flames fly??? Pity! I thought the dicussion was about the reason one might want to use checkinstall in order not to diverge the installed program base and the rpm database and keep the system in congruity - guess it's really about the never end "net etiquette" debacle - yet again! Curtis. -- Spammers Beware: Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again! I don't want a politician I can believe in. I simply want a politician I can believe! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 15 January 2007 15:39, Michael Nelson wrote:

On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 03:39:00PM -0800, Curtis Rey wrote:

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Checkinstall makes it a lot easier to fix problems and keep the rpm database coherent.

It is especially critical that people who top post use checkinstall. ;-)

Well, that's got to be humor, since every post back through the chain of responses all the way to the original post are __NOT__ top-posted.

Michael

RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 14 January 2007 20:36, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

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Free software isnt really free, it requires at least you to spend some of your time to get a least a minimal understanding about how it works.  

Quite a bit of my revenue comes from a friend who would try to dispute what you said :-)

Doesn't the fact that he pays you imply that "free software isn't really free"? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Distro and desktop designers, developers and others in the Linux community need to drop their holier-than-thou attitude and concentrate on the masses who need to escape the clutches of M$.

I'm afraid I don't have the original message, otherwise I'd attribute the above properly. Would whoever said it like to comment on where either of these perceived "needs" derives from? Especially the second one. To whoever said it... people railroad because it's time to railroad. People scratch because they have an itch. The only people who think there's some sort of responsibility on the part of the community to "save" anyone are the journalists. -- Marc Wilson | The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight msw@cox.net | of an approaching train.

No, of course I have nothing against usefriendly tools. but if you actually need a bit advanced setup, then you actually ***need to know** at least **the basics** !!! your company information or future can depend of this, this is a really seriuos problem.

f.e having a tractor does not mean you are automatically capable of growning corn no ? ;)

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Distro and desktop designers, developers and others in the Linux community need to drop their holier-than-thou attitude and concentrate on the masses who need to escape the clutches of M$.

Free software isnt really free, it requires at least you to spend some of your time to get a least a minimal understanding about how it works.

I cannot agree fully. My 83 year old mother is running Suse 10.2 now, following Mandrake 9.2 and before that Mandrake 9.0 and I can assure you that she is as "computer illiterate" as anyone and, as she ages, her abilities worsen. She is able to email, check her bank accounts, print pictures and play poker with no problem. These tasks are possible for her because they are click-click-click, not CLI. Do not assume that everyone who wants a fully-functioning system running behind a well-developed GUI is a newbie or too lazy to learn Linux. I have been a Unix admin since 1987 and have been running Linux versions since RedHat 5.2. I personally think that if using the CLI is necessary to do a job then the desktop designers did not do theirs. It is a matter of convenience at home and productivity at the office. There needs to be a shift to a new paradigm that builds upon the strength of Linux and strives to incorporate those users out there who, like my mom, do not have, nor ever will have, any in-depth computer skills. I know it can be done. Just look at how KDE and, to an extent, Gnome have developed as they constantly try to play catch-up to M$. I do not advocate Linux becoming another Windows but I do advocate having a complete package that fulfills the promise that Linux offers. I thought that Suse 10.2 was pretty good until I ran headlong into the optical media bug. Maybe when that gets fixed it will be a good distro. Fred -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org