[opensuse] Anything right about 10.1?
Hi all, Just finished doing the updates for KDE3 and associated files, but noticed a little problem. Several files won't update. Why, you ask? It seems that the build numbers of the files on the DVD9 or CDs, are larger than the build numbers on the files in the repositories. Take Digikam or callgrind. Those are just a couple of the files Adrian seems to have missed. Updating to the KDE3 3.5.3 files will even give you errors about digikam & kdelibs3. Installing the digikam in the updates cures the problem, but of course when you use yast2 or other updater later, it wants to replace the new files with the old DVD files. I understand you (suse) guys are frantically working to correct 10.1, but one would hope a few things get fixed along the way, not more problems introduced. Also, why isn't our selected screensavers coming on after the time we have set? Something we can fix or something still broken in QT3 or KDE3 stuff? Trying to be patient, but Slackware is starting to look better each day! ;o) Lee --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 03 June 2006 15:27, BandiPat wrote:
Hi all, Just finished doing the updates for KDE3 and associated files, but noticed a little problem. Several files won't update. Why, you ask? It seems that the build numbers of the files on the DVD9 or CDs, are larger than the build numbers on the files in the repositories. Take Digikam or callgrind. Those are just a couple of the files Adrian seems to have missed. Updating to the KDE3 3.5.3 files will even give you errors about digikam & kdelibs3. Installing the digikam in the updates cures the problem, but of course when you use yast2 or other updater later, it wants to replace the new files with the old DVD files.
Just a little reminder that supplementary sources ( KDE 3.5.3 ) are unsupported and provided for use at your own risk. Cheers Graham --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 3. Juni 2006 16:27 schrieb BandiPat:
Updating to the KDE3 3.5.3 files will even give you errors about digikam & kdelibs3. Installing the digikam in the updates cures the problem, but of course when you use yast2 or other updater later, it wants to replace the new files with the old DVD files.
Hi, you have to add the Backports as well http://software.opensuse.org/download/repositories/KDE:/Backports/SUSE_Linux... The screensaver Prob is known and in work https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=181122 Michael --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 03 June 2006 10:32, Michael Schueller wrote:
Am Samstag, 3. Juni 2006 16:27 schrieb BandiPat:
Updating to the KDE3 3.5.3 files will even give you errors about digikam & kdelibs3. Installing the digikam in the updates cures the problem, but of course when you use yast2 or other updater later, it wants to replace the new files with the old DVD files.
Hi, you have to add the Backports as well
http://software.opensuse.org/download/repositories/KDE:/Backports/SUS E_Linux_10.1/
The screensaver Prob is known and in work
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=181122
Michael
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Thanks guys, Michael & Graham, For telling me things I already knew! Except maybe for the screensaver thing. I thought someone from SUSE on another list said QT3 .119 fixed this, but guess not. Adding the Backports does not fix the problem with the build numbers Michael. Lee --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 3. Juni 2006 16:46 schrieb BandiPat:
On Saturday 03 June 2006 10:32, Michael Schueller wrote:
Am Samstag, 3. Juni 2006 16:27 schrieb BandiPat: [...] Thanks guys, Michael & Graham, For telling me things I already knew! Except maybe for the screensaver thing. I thought someone from SUSE on another list said QT3 .119 fixed this, but guess not.
No, this version fixed the Icon Prob (missing xpm support), the screensaver was called on friday, so it probably will be fixed next week, i guess ...
Adding the Backports does not fix the problem with the build numbers Michael.
Hmm, i did not had any Problems in upgrading.
Lee
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On Saturday 03 June 2006 15:46, BandiPat wrote:
Thanks guys, Michael & Graham, For telling me things I already knew! Except maybe for the screensaver thing. I thought someone from SUSE on another list said QT3 .119 fixed this, but guess not.
If you knew that the supplementary repositories are provided as an extra then it makes your posting to the mailing list complaining about an issue with them doubly worse. In fact it seems downright rude and inconsiderate. Next time why not try this instead "Thanks for going out of your way to provide us with extra updates. I appreciate the extra time and effort you have gone to in providing us with these extra packages. By the way there seems to be an dependancy issue with package foobar-x.x.x.rpm, how would you suggest i resolve it? keep up the good work and thanks again!" But then again I see you whining on the other lists too, perhaps as you say on those lists it *is* time you move to slackware, I'm sure they will be more tollereant of you whines on their lists, not. Graham --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 03 June 2006 11:08, Graham Anderson wrote:
On Saturday 03 June 2006 15:46, BandiPat wrote:
Thanks guys, Michael & Graham, For telling me things I already knew! Except maybe for the screensaver thing. I thought someone from SUSE on another list said QT3 .119 fixed this, but guess not.
If you knew that the supplementary repositories are provided as an extra then it makes your posting to the mailing list complaining about an issue with them doubly worse. In fact it seems downright rude and inconsiderate.
Next time why not try this instead
"Thanks for going out of your way to provide us with extra updates. I appreciate the extra time and effort you have gone to in providing us with these extra packages.
By the way there seems to be an dependancy issue with package foobar-x.x.x.rpm, how would you suggest i resolve it?
keep up the good work and thanks again!"
But then again I see you whining on the other lists too, perhaps as you say on those lists it *is* time you move to slackware, I'm sure they will be more tollereant of you whines on their lists, not.
Graham
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Nice bashing Graham! Jumping on me about what's wrong with SUSE 10.1 will certainly go a long way in making them aware of the problems many have experienced with it. If you prefer to have many things broken and can live with them, by all means, more power to you! If you had read my mail, you would have seen I wasn't "whining" as you lovingly put it, as much as I was trying to make someone aware of further problems with 10.1. 10.1 is/was not right and someone had the boneheaded idea to put it out anyway. Bad decision on someone's part, but they'll eventually get things fixed, fortunately Linux is that way, it can be fixed. We might have to wait until 10.2 or 10.3 before we see it, but it will be fixed. Enjoy your broken Linux for now and if sucking up to Novell/SUSE gets things fixed any quicker for you, let us know. regards, Lee --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 BandiPat wrote:
On Saturday 03 June 2006 11:08, Graham Anderson wrote:
On Saturday 03 June 2006 15:46, BandiPat wrote:
Thanks guys, Michael & Graham, For telling me things I already knew! Except maybe for the screensaver thing. I thought someone from SUSE on another list said QT3 .119 fixed this, but guess not. If you knew that the supplementary repositories are provided as an extra then it makes your posting to the mailing list complaining about an issue with them doubly worse. In fact it seems downright rude and inconsiderate.
Next time why not try this instead
"Thanks for going out of your way to provide us with extra updates. I appreciate the extra time and effort you have gone to in providing us with these extra packages.
By the way there seems to be an dependancy issue with package foobar-x.x.x.rpm, how would you suggest i resolve it?
keep up the good work and thanks again!"
+1
But then again I see you whining on the other lists too, perhaps as you say on those lists it *is* time you move to slackware, I'm sure they will be more tollereant of you whines on their lists, not.
Well, Lee, I have to add that introducing an mail with something like "fix it or I'm moving to slackware", that's probably supposed to be some form of threatening, is definitely.. how am I going to say this while staying polite... "bad practice".
Nice bashing Graham! Jumping on me about what's wrong with SUSE 10.1 will certainly go a long way in making them aware of the problems many have experienced with it. If you prefer to have many things broken and can live with them, by all means, more power to you! If you had read my mail, you would have seen I wasn't "whining" as you lovingly put it, as much as I was trying to make someone aware of further problems with
Your report is certainly interesting and will hopefully trigger a fix, but what Graham was referring to is your tone (and I second that). Especially your follow-up emails are quite inflammatory without it bringing any added value, this one being a very nice example as well.
10.1. 10.1 is/was not right and someone had the boneheaded idea to put it out anyway. Bad decision on someone's part, but they'll eventually get things fixed, fortunately Linux is that way, it can be fixed. We might have to wait until 10.2 or 10.3 before we see it, but it will be fixed. Enjoy your broken Linux for now and if sucking up to Novell/SUSE gets things fixed any quicker for you, let us know.
Wow, how nice. Actually you really confirmed Graham's reply ;)
Please keep on reporting issues, contributing, etc... but please drop
that troll dress, that's not helping anyone, and certainly not yourself.
Thanks.
cheers
- --
-o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
/\\
On Saturday 03 June 2006 18:48, Pascal Bleser wrote: [...]
Well, Lee, I have to add that introducing a mail with something like "fix it or I'm moving to slackware", that's probably supposed to be some form of threatening, is definitely.. how am I going to say this while staying polite... "bad practice". =========== Sorry Pascal, that's not what I said, don't change it to suit yours and Graham's arguments. I'll repost it so you'll be clear and others won't start jumping down my throat for something you made up to sound like it came from me. I quote me: "Trying to be patient, but Slackware is starting to look better each day! ;o)"
Your report is certainly interesting and will hopefully trigger a fix, but what Graham was referring to is your tone (and I second that).
Especially your follow-up emails are quite inflammatory without it bringing any added value, this one being a very nice example as well. ============= My tone is that of a frustrated & disappointed long time SUSE user, nothing more, nothing less. Don't interpret it or imply your thoughts into what I was trying to convey, because I'm pretty sure you can't read my mine or you would have known. You're welcome to bring your
10.1. 10.1 is/was not right and someone had the boneheaded idea to put it out anyway. Bad decision on someone's part, but they'll eventually get things fixed, fortunately Linux is that way, it can be fixed. We might have to wait until 10.2 or 10.3 before we see it, but it will be fixed. Enjoy your broken Linux for now and if sucking up to Novell/SUSE gets things fixed any quicker for you, let us know.
Wow, how nice. Actually you really confirmed Graham's reply ;)
Please keep on reporting issues, contributing, etc... but please drop that troll dress, that's not helping anyone, and certainly not yourself.
Thanks.
cheers ========== No actually I confirmed or implied that Graham seems to be a suckup and
With a smiley, no less! ------------------------------ [...] thoughts into the discussion, but don't make yours mine please. -------------------- that is the way he thinks things should be handled. I don't think any less of Novell/Suse or the guys doing the work, because I know they can't be happy with this whole situation either. They'll do all they can to correct those things needing fixing. Hopefully they'll be allowed to handle things in a timely & rewarding manner that will please them and us. If I didn't believe in them and their work still, I would already be gone instead of still searching out problems. thank you, Lee --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 03 June 2006 16:27, BandiPat wrote:
seems to have missed. Updating to the KDE3 3.5.3 files will even give you errors about digikam & kdelibs3. Installing the digikam in the
but one would hope a few things get fixed along the way, not more problems introduced.
The above problem doesn't exist in Factory btw. You're using unsupported experimental stuff which is known to have problems (like above or splash still containing a "3.5.1" graphic or not everything getting translated). Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 03 June 2006 16:27, BandiPat wrote:
seems to have missed. Updating to the KDE3 3.5.3 files will even give you errors about digikam & kdelibs3. Installing the digikam in the
but one would hope a few things get fixed along the way, not more problems introduced.
The above problem doesn't exist in Factory btw. You're using unsupported experimental stuff which is known to have problems (like above or splash still containing a "3.5.1" graphic or not everything getting translated).
Bye, Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Steve, I'm very aware these problems don't exist in the original files, well, I take that back, they do, because someone messed up the build numbers! If anyone wants to experiment with the new stuff, which I assume SUSE would like for some of us to do in order to help run down problems,
On Saturday 03 June 2006 12:38, Stephan Binner wrote: then isn't it safe to say we should be able to update without forcing or removing the old files first or having our chosen updater try to replace them later with old files? regards, Lee --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Moin! Am Samstag, 3. Juni 2006 18:38 schrieb Stephan Binner:
The above problem doesn't exist in Factory btw. You're using unsupported experimental stuff which is known to have problems (like above or splash still containing a "3.5.1" graphic or not everything getting translated).
He is using the least risky way in order to be able to test new KDE versions for the next SuSE release and hence helps fixing bugs and thus contributes to the quality of a SuSE product, i.e. something those that do not test newer versions of KDE profit from. Further he is using a bugfix-release, hardly any bugfixes are backported and supplied via YOU, so this is the only choice apart from more risky (betas and alphas) or more inconvenient methods (compiling). Further he is using "genuine added value, at no cost", see http://www.novell.com/linux/download/linuks/ If Novell would think this is too risky for users, it would not call it "genuine added value" but "genuine added risk". Sven --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Sven Burmeister schrieb:
He is using the least risky way in order to be able to test new KDE versions for the next SuSE release and hence helps fixing bugs and thus contributes to the quality of a SuSE product, i.e. something those that do not test newer versions of KDE profit from.
I'm not sure that using these packages really helps finding and fixing bugs for the next release. The best and maybe even the only way to do that is using factory. 10.1 + build service is not what will become the next release - that is factory and nothing else. There might be artifacts because the way the base system and the KDE packages are combined is different from what will become the next release. There might be even wrong bug reports because of that, which might actually consume additional time and effort instead of helping.
Further he is using a bugfix-release, hardly any bugfixes are backported and supplied via YOU, so this is the only choice apart from more risky (betas and alphas) or more inconvenient methods (compiling).
Of course bugfixes will be supplied via YOU. Actually there was already a qt3 + kdebase3 bugfix YOU. The packages in the build service are not bugfix releases. Don't mix up the upstream development with the packaging work: From the stand point of upstream development, KDE 3.5.3 is clearly a bugfix release, but packaging software is much more than downloading it and making it compile. There is integration work to do, and a version upgrade to something that is published as bugfix release from upstream does not necesserily have to behave like a bugfix package because upstream development and packaging are very different things.
If Novell would think this is too risky for users, it would not call it "genuine added value" but "genuine added risk".
Added value == added risk. There is no contradiction here. Sometimes I seriously dislike the way people expect these extra packages to work. Some users expect them to have the same or even higher quality than the originally distributed ones because the difference between the version-release number and the work that has to be done to make packages behave as expected is not clear. And claiming that using these packages helps improving the quality of the next release is a very problematic thing. This might be true in many cases, but there might be exceptions, caused by artifacts and possibly invalid bug reports as described above. Sometimes I just don't understand why these extra packages are so popular among consumers. The packagers are spending huge amounts of time for doing integration work and bugfixes only, everyone who read opensuse-commit in the last months is able to know that, and then consumers just throw everything away because there's something available that looks like a bugfix update because it has a higher version-release number. By the way, splitting KDE itself and the most popular KDE applications into separate repositories is a great step forward compared to the old supplementary FTP. It can prevent some common problems and misunderstandings - if people appreciate and follow the split instead of quickly adding both repositories to their $PACKAGEMANAGER configuration just because they can... Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hello! Am Sonntag, 4. Juni 2006 01:47 schrieb Andreas Hanke:
I'm not sure that using these packages really helps finding and fixing bugs for the next release. The best and maybe even the only way to do that is using factory.
You are saying that using factory 10.2 (most bleeding edge, as somebody called it) for SuSE 10.0 is less risky than the Build-Service?
10.1 + build service is not what will become the next release - that is factory and nothing else. There might be artifacts because the way the base system and the KDE packages are combined is different from what will become the next release. There might be even wrong bug reports because of that, which might actually consume additional time and effort instead of helping.
A KDE-bug will be in the build-service, as well as in the factory-packages, so it does not matter which ones one uses. Especially since people report most KDE-bugs to KDE ond not Novell. Those few which are packaging-specific, do consume extra-time, yet the majority are genuine KDE-bugs and hence help KDE and thus SuSE.
Further he is using a bugfix-release, hardly any bugfixes are backported and supplied via YOU, so this is the only choice apart from more risky (betas and alphas) or more inconvenient methods (compiling).
Of course bugfixes will be supplied via YOU. Actually there was already a qt3 + kdebase3 bugfix YOU.
I said "hardly any", if you search the archives you will find that YOU is not supplying bugfix-releases but just some bugfixes which are considered important enough. However, for the user even non-critical bugs can be very annoying, hence the wish to not only get the critical bugs fixed, but the whole bugfix-release. I am not sure if it was backported, but there is for example a bug in kmail that was fixed in 3.5.3 and leads to it loosing folder-settings when it quits, very annoying, yet not a security or critical bugfix.
The packages in the build service are not bugfix releases. Don't mix up the upstream development with the packaging work: From the stand point of upstream development, KDE 3.5.3 is clearly a bugfix release, but packaging software is much more than downloading it and making it compile. There is integration work to do, and a version upgrade to something that is published as bugfix release from upstream does not necesserily have to behave like a bugfix package because upstream development and packaging are very different things.
Since bugfix-releases of NLD and SLD, apparently including KDE-versions, are supplied they are possible. The KDE-website refers to them as bugfix-releases and they fix a lot of bugs if packaged correctly, which I think is part of something which is offered as "genuine added value". Hence I still regard them as bugfix-releases.
If Novell would think this is too risky for users, it would not call it "genuine added value" but "genuine added risk".
Added value == added risk. There is no contradiction here.
So Novell is advertising that it supplies an extra value called risk? Who would "sell" risk as something valueable, apart from adventure-travel-companies?
Sometimes I seriously dislike the way people expect these extra packages to work. Some users expect them to have the same or even higher quality than the originally distributed ones because the difference between the version-release number and the work that has to be done to make packages behave as expected is not clear.
And claiming that using these packages helps improving the quality of the next release is a very problematic thing. This might be true in many cases, but there might be exceptions, caused by artifacts and possibly invalid bug reports as described above.
Ein bisschen Schwund ist immer.
Sometimes I just don't understand why these extra packages are so popular among consumers. The packagers are spending huge amounts of time for doing integration work and bugfixes only, everyone who read opensuse-commit in the last months is able to know that, and then consumers just throw everything away because there's something available that looks like a bugfix update because it has a higher version-release number.
Good question, I guess it is because they hope to get rid of bugs that annoy them, no matter if they are relevant enough for YOU or not. So if there were none in the first place, they might have less need to do so. Further, if you report bugs, you are very often told to check whether it is really fixed. So either you quit reporting bugs, compile e.g. KDE BRANCH SVN, or as a middle course use the build-service packages. And of course, if you look at KDE 3.4 and 3.5 there are some nice new features, which people want to use without having to install a completely new system. Although this is another matter, but KDE and alike need beta-testers, so supplying beta- or RC-packages does help those projects, because compiling is really not that easy for most users. Of course one can expect even less support for those packages from SuSE, except maybe to trigger a rebuild in order to incorporate changes in SVN, but they do help. And regarding the false alarm you mentioned, at least for me I can say that 99% of the bugs I reported to KDE were not due to packaging and hence did help to improve KDE. Yet if there was no build-service, I would have to compile KDE, which I tried some time a go, but did not succeed. I do not have time to worry about compiling, but I want to contribute to KDE by at least reporting bugs. So at least for me, SuSE is giving back KDE by supplying packages for its users that help finding bugs.
By the way, splitting KDE itself and the most popular KDE applications into separate repositories is a great step forward compared to the old supplementary FTP. It can prevent some common problems and misunderstandings - if people appreciate and follow the split instead of quickly adding both repositories to their $PACKAGEMANAGER configuration just because they can...
That's true. So there is less integration to be done for those? Sven --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Sven Burmeister schrieb:
You are saying that using factory 10.2 (most bleeding edge, as somebody called it) for SuSE 10.0 is less risky than the Build-Service?
No.
A KDE-bug will be in the build-service, as well as in the factory-packages, so it does not matter which ones one uses.
No, the packages will not behave the same and yes, it does matter which ones are used.
Especially since people report most KDE-bugs to KDE ond not Novell.
The kscreensaver problem was reported three times to bugzilla.novell.com today (181121, 181122, 181585). And even worse, most people are reporting problems neither at bugs.kde.org nor at bugzilla.novell.com, but in user forums where they don't help at all, together with complaints, complaints and complaints that the extra service nobody paid for is so bad and that the so-called "official updates" are broken.
Those few which are packaging-specific, do consume extra-time, yet the majority are genuine KDE-bugs and hence help KDE and thus SuSE.
Yes, good point - A typical example of a packaging-specific problem can be found in this very thread: http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse/2006-Jun/0088.html And, as expected, it is not the same in factory vs. 10.1 + build service.
I said "hardly any", if you search the archives you will find that YOU is not supplying bugfix-releases but just some bugfixes which are considered important enough.
The solution is using factory or RCs shortly before a release and reporting all bugs to prevent that they go into the release at all. Then one can really seriously claim that one helped improving the quality of the next release. Otherwise it's difficult.
I am not sure if it was backported, but there is for example a bug in kmail that was fixed in 3.5.3 and leads to it loosing folder-settings when it quits, very annoying, yet not a security or critical bugfix.
I believe that data loss bugs are severe enough to justify a YOU. In this case, verifying that the bug is really present in the official packages and politely asking for a YOU if it is might be an interesting option - keyword being "politely". If the request sounds like "You must [...]" instead of "Could you [...]", chances are lower that it will be done, not higher.
Since bugfix-releases of NLD and SLD, apparently including KDE-versions, are supplied they are possible.
NLD and SLED are enterprise products. They have a different licensing scheme and a different level of support than what is usually called "the box"/openSUSE. As you might know, [opensuse] is about "the box" and not about enterprise products. Whoever needs enterprise level support can feel free to purchase enterprise products.
The KDE-website refers to them as bugfix-releases and they fix a lot of bugs if packaged correctly, which I think is part of something which is offered as "genuine added value". Hence I still regard them as bugfix-releases.
Maybe you do, but then please don't be surprised if the expectations and the reality don't match. "If packaged correctly" is a highly interesting conditional because packaging software correctly is a very non-trivial business. Repeating expectations does not make them more realistic. No, seriously: The problem here is not that people are confusing development packages with bugfix releases, the problem is really the tone. If people say "I am using development packages for production purposes and have a problem, please have a look at it", it's perfectly OK, but if people accuse developers claiming that nothing is right about 10.1 because the so-called "bugfixes" are bad, there's something wrong.
So Novell is advertising that it supplies an extra value called risk? Who would "sell" risk as something valueable, apart from adventure-travel-companies?
I don't read an advertisement there, it sounds more like a disclaimer.
Ein bisschen Schwund ist immer.
This is an English speaking list. No, really: Yesterday I had a closer look at what is currently there in the build service just to find out that the amarok package from there is 19 MB compressed and ca. 100 MB on disk after installation. Guess why, it is compiled with full debug information and not stripped. It's close to ridiculous that people are confusing them with bugfix updates. Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andreas Hanke wrote: ....
No, really: Yesterday I had a closer look at what is currently there in the build service just to find out that the amarok package from there is 19 MB compressed and ca. 100 MB on disk after installation. Guess why, it is compiled with full debug information and not stripped. It's close to ridiculous that people are confusing them with bugfix updates.
That's going to be "fixed" soon.
The "problem" in the Build Service wrt that is that the spec files are
made portable across various distributions (SL Factory 10.1, 10.0, 9.3;
Fedora Core 5; Mandriva) and that we're currently in a phase where a lot
of testing happens, and investigations on how to achieve that.
Normally, from SUSE 9.3 on, the debug symbols of RPM packages are
removed and stripped by using the %debug_package macro, which
automagically creates a -debuginfo package (that hols the debugging
symbols).
It's not totally trivial atm to apply that macro in a portable manner
across distributions, but the problem is being tackled and a portable
solution will be provided soon.
That's the reason why the spec files in the Build Service currently
don't use the %debug_package macro and, hence, include debug symbols in
the binaries.
cheers
- --
-o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
/\\
Hi, Pascal Bleser schrieb:
That's the reason why the spec files in the Build Service currently don't use the %debug_package macro and, hence, include debug symbols in the binaries.
Thanks for the hint, I'll subscribe to [opensuse-buildservice]. ;) Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Am Sunday 04 June 2006 16:36 schrieb Pascal Bleser:
Andreas Hanke wrote: ....
No, really: Yesterday I had a closer look at what is currently there in the build service just to find out that the amarok package from there is 19 MB compressed and ca. 100 MB on disk after installation. Guess why, it is compiled with full debug information and not stripped. It's close to ridiculous that people are confusing them with bugfix updates.
That's going to be "fixed" soon.
The "problem" in the Build Service wrt that is that the spec files are made portable across various distributions (SL Factory 10.1, 10.0, 9.3; Fedora Core 5; Mandriva) and that we're currently in a phase where a lot of testing happens, and investigations on how to achieve that.
Normally, from SUSE 9.3 on, the debug symbols of RPM packages are removed and stripped by using the %debug_package macro, which automagically creates a -debuginfo package (that hols the debugging symbols).
you can use the same macro in the build service as well. There is just no nice button to use it for now.
It's not totally trivial atm to apply that macro in a portable manner across distributions, but the problem is being tackled and a portable solution will be provided soon.
right.
That's the reason why the spec files in the Build Service currently don't use the %debug_package macro and, hence, include debug symbols in the binaries.
but we removed the "-g" default meanwhile. -- Adrian Schroeter SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany email: adrian@suse.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Adrian Schröter schrieb:
but we removed the "-g" default meanwhile.
Yes, just noticed (#180772). But I hope it's temporary? It would be a pity if the -debuginfo packages were permanently gone. :( Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Moin! Am Sonntag, 4. Juni 2006 16:28 schrieb Andreas Hanke:
A KDE-bug will be in the build-service, as well as in the factory-packages, so it does not matter which ones one uses.
No, the packages will not behave the same and yes, it does matter which ones are used.
You try too hard to read something into my text. There are a lot of bugs which are simply KDE-bugs, e.g. that kmail bug with loosing the settings. No matter whether you build an RPM and install it, or compile from source, that bug is there, i.e. both things have the same bug. Building a package does not fix any bugs, it can only add them, unless of course a patch is applied.
Especially since people report most KDE-bugs to KDE ond not Novell.
The kscreensaver problem was reported three times to bugzilla.novell.com today (181121, 181122, 181585). And even worse, most people are reporting problems neither at bugs.kde.org nor at bugzilla.novell.com, but in user forums where they don't help at all, together with complaints, complaints and complaints that the extra service nobody paid for is so bad and that the so-called "official updates" are broken.
This is partly Novell's fault. in bugs.kde.org one enters the issue-title and then gets a list of bugs that the one reported could be a duplicate of, I guess they implemented that for a reason. Another possibility would be to have some people from the community to read over bugs and kill off all the duplicates, non-reproducable and logs lacking bugs before the actual devs spend time on them. Regarding the reporting of the "official updates'" bugs. Since those bugs, according to your definition should not be reported to novell anyway, because they are part of an unofficial service, it does not matter whether they are reported on forums. In fact, from your point of view all of those bugs should be posted to forums instead of novell's bugzilla or mailinglists, since that way they do not bother the developers at novell. You really have to make up your mind and decide whether you want bugs of the build-service packages being reported at novell, or somewhere else, where they do not bother anyone. Another thing is, those packages are part of the psychological contract SuSE has with its users, no matter whether they are official, or not. If this was not the case, why does Novell not just scrap them, if they just cause anger and pain to everybody and have no value?
I said "hardly any", if you search the archives you will find that YOU is not supplying bugfix-releases but just some bugfixes which are considered important enough.
The solution is using factory or RCs shortly before a release and reporting all bugs to prevent that they go into the release at all. Then one can really seriously claim that one helped improving the quality of the next release. Otherwise it's difficult.
Sorry, but most people got a job to do and cannot take some free time to intensively test while RCs are provided and certainly do not have the time to install a second system just to look for bugs in KDE. Most people find those bugs while simply using KDE and because they do some extra testing. So your solution is only for people who a) have enough space to set up a second system, b) have spare time to play in a non-productive system (as one should not move email and other serious work to a RC and hence cannot test it while just spending the normal amount of time at it), c) are willing to test the while new thing and not just one part of it, or are employed to do so. Not too many fall into that category.
I am not sure if it was backported, but there is for example a bug in kmail that was fixed in 3.5.3 and leads to it loosing folder-settings when it quits, very annoying, yet not a security or critical bugfix.
I believe that data loss bugs are severe enough to justify a YOU. In this case, verifying that the bug is really present in the official packages and politely asking for a YOU if it is might be an interesting option - keyword being "politely". If the request sounds like "You must [...]" instead of "Could you [...]", chances are lower that it will be done, not higher.
As that attitude does not apply to me, I wonder why you mention it.
Since bugfix-releases of NLD and SLD, apparently including KDE-versions, are supplied they are possible.
NLD and SLED are enterprise products. They have a different licensing scheme and a different level of support than what is usually called "the box"/openSUSE. As you might know, [opensuse] is about "the box" and not about enterprise products. Whoever needs enterprise level support can feel free to purchase enterprise products.
So? All I stated was: it is possible, especially if one of those enterprise products is based on a SuSE Linux version.
No, seriously: The problem here is not that people are confusing development packages with bugfix releases, the problem is really the tone. If people say "I am using development packages for production purposes and have a problem, please have a look at it", it's perfectly OK, but if people accuse developers claiming that nothing is right about 10.1 because the so-called "bugfixes" are bad, there's something wrong.
I did not do that, so that is not my problem. Novell lost some credebility by releasing that Zen-thingy as "stable" and I guess nobody will try telling me that that bit of the distri is worth the SuSE on the box, but anyway. I'll just wait till it gets fixed and did my part by reporting all bugs I found concerning that little piece of software.
So Novell is advertising that it supplies an extra value called risk? Who would "sell" risk as something valueable, apart from adventure-travel-companies?
I don't read an advertisement there, it sounds more like a disclaimer.
Ein bisschen Schwund ist immer.
This is an English speaking list.
So? Have you never seen a English idom or saying on a German list? What about Latin, or Esperanto, would that be ok for you? Honestly, you seem a bit picky.
No, really: Yesterday I had a closer look at what is currently there in the build service just to find out that the amarok package from there is 19 MB compressed and ca. 100 MB on disk after installation. Guess why, it is compiled with full debug information and not stripped. It's close to ridiculous that people are confusing them with bugfix updates.
Well, since you seem to not have used supplementary or build-service before, you fell for that bug and thought it would be the intended state, bad luck. Yet even if, just because it is compiled with full debug, it does not mean that it does not fix bugs, so again, do not try too hard to descredit people by telling them that they behave close to ridiculousness. I fully agree that people should always behave politely. I totally disagree that one should tell anyone that tries to help by reporting bugs, no matter whether some of those are packaging-issues or not, to bugger off and come back if s/he is seriously into testing and has the time to install a second system, i.e. using factory (which might contain alpha version) or RCs and alike. I think one should be happy that people start reporting bugs, of course they will report some non-existing, there will be some that just rant but there certainly will be a few which take the build-service as a starting point and then maybe even test RCs. Sven --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
10.1 + build service is not what will become the next release - that is factory and nothing else. There might be artifacts because the way the
The plan is to move Factory within the build service ... To allow an open development of the distribution. We just not have all pieces together to do so. -- Adrian Schroeter SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany email: adrian@suse.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 10:27:08AM -0400, BandiPat wrote:
Hi all, Just finished doing the updates for KDE3 and associated files, but noticed a little problem.
<snip> Do not take this as a flame. It is intend to get you the best support for now and in the future. openSUSE is the comunity and SUSE is the distribution. This means that this openSUSE mailinglist is about the community. The mailinglist for technical help is on *suse-linux-e* Just subscribe via this email address: suse-linux-e-subscribe@suse.com, post your original email again there, and you will get a straight answer.
From http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate#SUSE_Linux_Mailing_Lists : # opensuse for general discussion about the openSUSE (development) project. # For general questions related to released SUSE Linux versions # (eg. 9.3, 10.0) please use suse-linux-e
Please take a look at http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate to see wich list is exactly for what purpose. Again, this is not a flame. This is intended to bring you to the correct place so you will get better help _and_ to keep this list free from unwanted treads. Thanks and I hope you will soon find a solution. -- houghi http://houghi.org http://www.plainfaqs.org/linux/ http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
Today I went outside. My pupils have never been tinier...
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On Saturday 03 June 2006 13:01, houghi wrote:
On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 10:27:08AM -0400, BandiPat wrote:
Hi all, Just finished doing the updates for KDE3 and associated files, but noticed a little problem.
<snip> Do not take this as a flame. It is intend to get you the best support for now and in the future.
openSUSE is the comunity and SUSE is the distribution. This means that this openSUSE mailinglist is about the community. The mailinglist for technical help is on *suse-linux-e* Just subscribe via this email address: suse-linux-e-subscribe@suse.com, post your original email again there, and you will get a straight answer.
From http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate#SUSE_Linux_Mailing_Lists : # opensuse for general discussion about the openSUSE (development) project. # For general questions related to released SUSE Linux versions # (eg. 9.3, 10.0) please use suse-linux-e
Please take a look at http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate to see wich list is exactly for what purpose.
Again, this is not a flame. This is intended to bring you to the correct place so you will get better help _and_ to keep this list free from unwanted treads.
Thanks and I hope you will soon find a solution. =========
Thanks houghi, for your form email. Like form letters, it seldom seems appropriate considering the many unnecessary threads that appear here. This concerns opensuse as well as SUSE, so attention needs to be brought to these problems in both forums. The community that uses these updates is no less concerned with the problems than the regular users, so sending this was out of place more than me trying to bring attention to it. I don't take it as a flame and am not intending a flame back. regards, Lee --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2006-06-03 at 19:01 +0200, houghi wrote:
On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 10:27:08AM -0400, BandiPat wrote:
Hi all, Just finished doing the updates for KDE3 and associated files, but noticed a little problem.
<snip> Do not take this as a flame. It is intend to get you the best support for now and in the future.
openSUSE is the comunity and SUSE is the distribution. This means that this openSUSE mailinglist is about the community. The mailinglist for technical help is on *suse-linux-e* Just subscribe via this email address: suse-linux-e-subscribe@suse.com, post your original email again there, and you will get a straight answer.
From http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate#SUSE_Linux_Mailing_Lists : # opensuse for general discussion about the openSUSE (development) project. # For general questions related to released SUSE Linux versions # (eg. 9.3, 10.0) please use suse-linux-e
Please take a look at http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate to see wich list is exactly for what purpose.
Again, this is not a flame. This is intended to bring you to the correct place so you will get better help _and_ to keep this list free from unwanted treads.
Thanks and I hope you will soon find a solution.
Houghi, Could you please stop posting these to the list and perhaps send them direct to the people that seem to offend you. Thanks, -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Jun 04, 2006 at 08:38:37PM -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:
Could you please stop posting these to the list and perhaps send them direct to the people that seem to offend you.
No. houghi -- This openSUSE mailinglist is about the community. All discussion about the community is welcome. If you have a techical question just subscribe via this email address: suse-linux-e-subscribe@suse.com, post your original email again there, and you will get a straight answer. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
participants (10)
-
Adrian Schröter -
Andreas Hanke -
BandiPat -
Graham Anderson -
houghi -
Kenneth Schneider -
Michael Schueller -
Pascal Bleser -
Stephan Binner -
Sven Burmeister