New subject: [SLE] Disgruntled Customer (README)

23 Aug 2000

      I got no problem with SuSE. Everything they deliver works fine. I use 
sendmail, nfs, nis, firewall, masq, samba, lprng, apache, mysql, x, 
alsa(hand configured), yast. I tend to hand configure things 
because......well once you learn Linux you feel good doing it just because 
you can =) I am curious though how YaST2 will do the nfs/nis(?) stuff.

I have to admit I never read the SuSE handbook(s). I barely ever used the 
documentation which can be installed on CD. I just don't find it very easy 
to maneuver in.

I use linuxdoc.org and google search engine and there is all you ever want. 
Most problems can be put into one of the program categories listed above and 
hence you go to that how-to. 90% of problems can be fixed through this. 
Otherwise you go to alsa mailing list for alsa.

SuSE comes nicely packaged and contains more stuff I ever could make use 
off. Due to its large content base it must be a hell of a lot of work to 
keep all things up to date and working.

I am sure there is always ways to improve things but it takes time. SuSe 
created the contact points for problems so if you don't use them then don't 
expect an acknowledgement.

I also would NEVER expect a precompiled kernel upgrade (2.2.14->2.2.16) to 
keep alsa sound functional. That is lunatic. Purely to the fact that this 
kernel is different from the one before how can all binaries which refer to 
2.2.14 still work with 2.2.16? Alsa is picky about the kernel version so why 
blame this on SuSE?

Even if I run into problems with SuSE its more of a challenge to find out 
why there is a problem. Doesn't that make you curious? So if a packag 
doesn't work for me I pull down the source compile install and have it 
working and feel glad we ARE using open source. If we weren't we would be 
doomed in that case. Just because a thing doesn't work for you doesn't stop 
you to go and compile it yourself.

I don't expect SuSe to create their own documentation to the above mentioned 
programs. I mean why would SuSe go through the lengths of creating MYSQL 
docu if there is in-depth docu on the mysql site? Why would SuSE waste their 
time creating big printing documentation if the best printing doc is at 
www.astart.com???

I think you depend too much on one vendor(SuSE) and one mailing list instead 
of going out there and using all the resources available to you.

Hut ab zu SuSE,

mk
...
From: Ron Heron 
To: Monte Milanuk , Michael Hasenstein 
CC: suse-linux-e@suse.com
Subject: Re: [SLE] Disgruntled Customer
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:32:56 -0700 (PDT)
SuSE, and anyone else who cares about this thread....
I think we have every right to be critical of SuSE.
We, after all, pay them for a product.  When the
product comes out half-baked (or under documented) we
tend to get sour.  While we as customers sometimes
make brain-dead mistakes, SuSE, as a vendor does, too.
 Just looking at Michaels replies - how the hell were
we supposed to know what suse or RH do with their
kernels, unless they tell us?  Does he REALLY want to
stand behind me while I work on my system - for what?
Do I need SuSE to tell me that the problems are MY
problems?  - No duh, they're my problems.
Also, SuSE wants a bug report for everything.  Some of
this stuff is very basic, and a low level of QC or
Documentation could easily have kept people from major
frustration.
Right now, the feeling I get is
"This is SuSE, you like it, you told me so, so shut
up.  If you got a problem, fill out a bug report, and
we'll tell you that we already knew about it.  We save
ton's of money letting the customer QC our
distributions, so we can hire egotistical people to
respond to your concerns and really make you feel like
an idiot."
Truthfully, I am not really bothered by the whole
ordeal.  I think it's rather funny seeing these kind
of responses from vendors, especially in this day and
age.  It's kinda like the old days, when you could
treat the customers poorly, because there was no
alternative.  I said WAS.
Oh, and SuSE, before you get started on this - I know
you need details, and general statements don't help
much, blah blah.  But, perhaps the marketing and
management folks should attend to this issue.  It is
clearly not an engineering problem.  It is a QC,
Documentation, Customer Relation, and Packaging
problem.  That was the reason for the generality in
the original post. If I actually wanted help fixing
the problems (I didn't ask for help, did I?) then I
would have posted in that matter.
But, on a positive note, I did learn alot about the
kernel packaging!
Ron
--- Monte Milanuk  wrote:
...
...
Ron Heron wrote:
...
Hello,  I have been using SuSE since 6.0.  I
upgraded
...
to 6.2, and then 6.4.  It seems to me, though,
...
...
getting the system usable, and maintaining
current
software is becoming more and more difficult
with
SuSE.  Maybe it is just me, but I have noticed
I cannot agree.
...
numerous postings where people have MAJOR
...
...
using SuSE upgrades and patches, or basic Linux
This is a ridiculous observation. Who else would
--- Michael Hasenstein  wrote:
that
problems
post
...
anything here?!
This mailing list is for problems and their
solutions.
...
upgrades on a SuSE-installed system.  Here are
my
examples:
1)  Upgraded to Kernel 2.2.16, and the system
was
unusable.  Why can't I upgrade to a new kernel
a) That is hardly a SuSE problem if you choose to
upgrade
one of hte
major components without knowing what you're
doing.
b) Correct, the stock 2.2.16 is next to unusable.
This is
why the SuSE
2.2.16 is a 2.2.16 + several MB of patches, for
both
stability and
features.
...
downloaded from the internet?  Every time (5
times
now) I tried to put in a new kernel on a SuSE
distro,
it failed miserably.  But, I was able to upgrade
other
Linux systems at work (RH and Debian)  I had to
fall
back to the SuSE kernel.  Is not linux linux?
It is, and I never had problems. Of course, one
has to
know what one is
doing.
...
2)  Installed "Almost Everything" and Almost
nothing
works!  Fresh, out of the box, ran an Almost
Everything install on my test box, just for fun.
Well, I was utterly amazed at how many things
just do
not work!.  I try to open up Kgrabber, and it
tells me
I don't have this installed, or that installed,
so it
cannot function, and the program is just taking
up
space.  Why would SuSE package and install
software
that can't work?
??? Thanks for the detailed bug report.
So, are you saying you want a bug report for every
package
that doesn't work right, or has unresolved
dependencies
_out_of_the_box_?  That would be more than a few,
imho.
People are somewhat used to stuff working when it
comes
from SuSE, and I think the beef here is that some
stuff
doesn't just flat doesn't work out of the box, or
downloaded, from the SuSE mirrors.  I had one box
that the
kernel upgrade (using the binary rpms, thank you
very much)
was a complete nightmare.  Another one, piece of
cake.
Using the same files downloaded from a SuSE mirror,
shared
over the lan via nfs.
Oh, I know.  Now you are going to complain that we
don't
give specific examples.  But when I do, are you
going
shuffle me off w/ a 'why didn't you submit a bug
report?'?
Why?  Because for one, these are pretty basic.  If
SuSE was
going to do something about them, I think they would
have
done it before the software came out, as there is
little
chance they could have missed them (I could be
wrong)
a) kblade:  Requires bladenc -- where is it? finding
a
source package on the bladenc homepage is a PITA,
why
bother even including the package in 6.4?
b) opso:  Upgrading to the kernel 2.2.16 breaks the
oss
package that comes w/ 6.4.  So if you use opso, you
now
have no sound, but a nice new kernel.  Use alsa
0.5.8 you
say?  It claims amixer needs reinstalled, but amixer
isn't
a separate package.  amixer complains about needing
libasound.so.1, when the system has libasound.so,
and the
normal link of libasound.so to libasound.so.1
doesn't work.
 Fun, fun, fun.
If you want more examples, I know I can dig them up,
and
others can to, if we have time.  The point is,
particularly
w/ ones like these, updates from suse that break
previously
working packages, or depend on packages that suse
doesn't
even package, are below what we the consumers expect
from
SuSE.
Monte
...
...
3)  Decided to upgrade to XFree86 4.0.  I
...
...
the software from SuSE, and followed SuSE
instructions
EXACTLY, and it absolutely would not work.
After
several hours, I ftp'd via command line to
XFree86.org, downloaded the precompiled
binaries,
followed THEIR instructions, and it worked
...
...
The only exception was the gray screen instead
of
background, and missing xsession file.  Still
have the
background problem, but the xsession problem was
...
...
fault of SuSE erasing the file during install.
I'd really love to stand behind you when you do
downloaded
perfectly.
the
this...
...
...
4)  Did everyone see the post from the poor guy
who
...
...
upgraded apache, (again, a SuSE upgrade) and it
now
doesn't work?
There's ALWAYS someone where everything go wrong,
and
(almost) always
it's NOT our fault.
...
What is going on here?  I cannot believe that
SuSE is
releasing 7.0 in 10 days, and their 6.4 is such
a
heap.  Or maybe that is the plan.....
=== message truncated ===
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Re: [SLE] Disgruntled Customer

purpleshirt＠hotmail.com

mha＠suse.com

gdoris＠home.com

mha＠suse.com

gdoris＠home.com

mha＠suse.com

tbutler＠uninetsolutions.com

mha＠suse.com

tbutler＠uninetsolutions.com

mha＠suse.com

hattons＠bellatlantic.net

corsepiu＠faw.uni-ulm.de

mha＠suse.com

DanBarnes＠worldnet.att.net

mha＠suse.com

DanBarnes＠worldnet.att.net

mha＠suse.com

hattons＠bellatlantic.net

mha＠suse.com

gdoris＠home.com

mha＠suse.com

alex＠physical36.chem.ufl.edu

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