Op vrijdag 23 januari 2004 21:51, schreef Togan Muftuoglu:

* Paul W. Abrahams; on 23 Jan, 2004 wrote:

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I'd like to put forth a proposal to SuSE and the folks on this list (who obviously include knowledgeable SuSEers) that SuSE create a self-maintaining user knowledge base with the same structure as SuSE's own database.  Users could contribute articles to it having the same structure (including, in particular, keywords) as those in SuSE's own database.   It could be surrounded by as many disclaimers as desired that the knowledge is not in any way guaranteed by SuSE and SuSE is not responsible for the accuracy or correctness of the knowledge therein.

such a knowledge base exists why not join forces rather then recreating the wheel :-)

Heh Togan don't be shy and mention _your_ link: http://susefaq.sf.net It just had a new release: http://freshmeat.net/projects/susefaq/?branch_id=22085&release_id=148758&topic_id=253 -- Richard

The Friday 2004-01-23 at 22:11 +0100, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:

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Heh Togan don't be shy and mention _your_ link: http://susefaq.sf.net

I have it as part of my signature, maybe it shoudl have been a javascript clickable popup box :-)

X-) Don't you dare! Your mails would be filtered out as spam right away :-p -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

On Friday 23 January 2004 21:51, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:

* Paul W. Abrahams; on 23 Jan, 2004 wrote:

...

I'd like to put forth a proposal to SuSE and the folks on this list (who obviously include knowledgeable SuSEers) that SuSE create a self-maintaining user knowledge base with the same structure as SuSE's own database. Users could contribute articles to it having the same structure (including, in particular, keywords) as those in SuSE's own database. It could be surrounded by as many disclaimers as desired that the knowledge is not in any way guaranteed by SuSE and SuSE is not responsible for the accuracy or correctness of the knowledge therein.

such a knowledge base exists why not join forces rather then recreating the wheel :-)

Well, Togan, I think you and I should be discussing that very issue. The Linux Tutorial provides a great many features that allow easy access to knowledge and well as a great deal of content. One thing that is missing is a way to access the information "topically", such as the way you FAQ does. However, we are already working on that. As I mentioned, another thing that we are working on is the ability for users to add new material. We have decided that you really need an approval process for that. Since Togan has been running the FAQ , I think he would be a good choice for an approver/administrator. (One among several) We have also been discussing a couple different mechanisms to add new material. So, take a look at the site and let me know what you think. I firmly believe that we should join forces. We are both repeating content as well as effort and that does no one any good. Regards, jimmo -- --------------------------------------- "Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden --------------------------------------- The Linux Tutorial needs your help! Visit us at http://www.linux-tutorial.info

On Friday 23 January 2004 4:44 pm, John Andersen wrote:

Google is probably your best answer overall because it will search the official Database, as well as mailing lists (like this one) and the susefaq and way more sources than a single database.

Sharpen your google skills and you have the best of all the rest.

Google searches have a poor signal-to-noise ratio. For instance, I often find questions similar to mine, but no answer to the question. And list posts in general have lots of extraneous text, unlike the articles in SuSE SDB, which is my model of what a database should look like. I should also mention Togan's unofficial SuSE FAQ. It's a marvelous resource and a noble contribution to the community, but it still doesn't serve the purpose of the database I'm suggesting. First, Togan would have to vet the contributions and incorporate them, which would be an enormous burden on him. Second, the highly structured organization of his FAQ is complementary to, not a replacement for, the flat structure of SDB. Paul Abrahams

The Friday 2004-01-23 at 17:27 -0500, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

purpose of the database I'm suggesting. First, Togan would have to vet the contributions and incorporate them, which would be an enormous burden on him. Second, the highly structured organization of his FAQ is complementary to, not a replacement for, the flat structure of SDB.

The FAQ integrated perfectly with the SDB, locally, at least till SuSE 8.2. I am able to do searches on it with susehelp running from my local apache server. I don't know if this is the case with the new format SDB. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

The Sunday 2004-01-25 at 16:09 -0500, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

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The FAQ integrated perfectly with the SDB, locally, at least till SuSE 8.2. I am able to do searches on it with susehelp running from my local apache server.

The FAQ and the SDB are so different in their organizations that it's not useful to ask which one is better. Having both of them is far better than having either one of them alone. And the integration you speak of enhances the value of both.

That's not what I'm talking about :-) When I point my browser to my localhost page, I see a sample page, with these links at the bottom: | [ SuSE help system ] | [ /usr/share/doc/ directory ] | [ PHP manual ] | [ Apache Manual ] | | [ The SuSE website ] If I go to the [ SuSE help system ], I see: | # SuSE Linux | SuSE specific Documentation | | * Support database | Your question- our answer! We have already found the answers to most | of your questions. In the support database, you will find the right tips so that you can print over the network or run your IDE | burner ... daily updated at http://sdb.suse.de/. | * Administration Guide | Network, expertise, reference - All about SuSE Linux | * SuSE Tour And finally: | * SuSEFAQ | o Unofficial SuSE FAQ | Unofficial FAQ and their answers for installing and | configuring SuSE Linux (network, firewall, mail, booting | concept, kernel etc.) Therefore, I say that the SuSE SDB, old format, local, shows on the same page as Togan's SuSEFAQ - on the same page, integrated. And both are searched by the search engine: if I go to "Search options", I see all the originally SuSE entries, plus the "Unofficial SuSE FAQ" at the bottom. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

I'd like to see a database aimed at newbies. Suse's documentation does not keep up with the features in Yast, etc. There's a lot of info out there, but most of it is over the heads of us "dumber than a box of rocks" linux fans:-} Before linux can make any headway on the desktop the documentation needs to be revamped for the non-geek. Rich Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter. -Martin Luther King- C. Richard Matson

I just wanted to pass along that I will be gone all next week and won't have access to my email until Saturday. I do not want to let this disappear. The Linux Tutorial has already achieved many of the goals already discussed and is working hard to achieve any more. It would be shame if we did not all work together on this. Regards, jimmo -- --------------------------------------- "Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden --------------------------------------- The Linux Tutorial needs your help! Visit us at http://www.linux-tutorial.info

* Richard Bos; on 29 Jan, 2004 wrote:

Op vrijdag 23 januari 2004 23:27, schreef Paul W. Abrahams: And what about 'faq-o-matic? http://faqomatic.sourceforge.net/fom-serve/cache/1.html

I see it sometimes, I have however not much experience with it.

Layout is yak, plus I am not so keen on installing CGI on my servers. diffrent output formats is doable but difficult. Just my 0.0023 € -- Togan Muftuoglu | Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer | Please reply to the list; http://susefaq.sf.net | Please don't put me in TO/CC. Nisi defectum, haud refiecendum

* Örn Hansen [01-24-04 05:18]:

On Friday 23 January 2004 22:44, John Andersen wrote:

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Sharpen your google skills and you have the best of all the rest.

Google has been my best freind on many an occasion. However, and unfortunately, a search may result in thousands of items. And it may take a lot of time, getting to the answer you sought.

It's better by limiting your search by: <item> <item> site:lists.suse.de or <item> <item> site:suse.de Then you have directed the scope of your search to one location, and that location is your best option. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org

On Friday 23 January 2004 4:56 pm, Michael Yartsev wrote:

Good idea, you might want to try joining forces with the already existant database.

The problem with simply allowing users to add to the existing database is, as I noted in another post, SuSE's responsibility and therefore the extra work they'd have to do. A parallel database, with the same structure, avoids that problem and does piggyback on the work SuSE has done to create the structure and supporting software for their own database. Perhaps a SuSEr would like to comment on how someone from SuSE goes about adding an article to the SuSE database. Paul Abrahams

Hi, Am Samstag, 24. Januar 2004 11:12 schrieb Örn Hansen:

On Friday 23 January 2004 22:07, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

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On Friday 23 January 2004 4:56 pm, Michael Yartsev wrote:

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Good idea, you might want to try joining forces with the already existant database.

The problem with simply allowing users to add to the existing database is, as I noted in another post, SuSE's responsibility and therefore the extra work they'd have to do. A parallel database, with the same structure, avoids that problem and does piggyback on the work SuSE has done to create the structure and supporting software for their own database.

You would always have to appoint a moderator... otherwise, you'd end up with having a Usenet feed in that database. Or another form of a mailing list, because lots of people would jump in to comment, add worthless information, etc.

A scoring mechanism based on the votes of users could make the difference. That way everybody could contribute without a moderator. Good/interesting/ helpful content would get higher rating by the users.

And that's a lot of work.

...

Perhaps a SuSEr would like to comment on how someone from SuSE goes about adding an article to the SuSE database.

The current system (since the support data base is integrated in the new portal http://portal.suse.com/sdb/en/index.html) is NPS based. NPS is a content managment system from Infopark. So somebody creating a new article or editing an existing one has to work in NPS - this then gets exported into HTML and ends up on the external server (portal). Greetings from Bremen hartmut

Hi All! What you are all describing seems to be pretty much the idea behind the Linkbat project (LINux Knowledge Base and Tutorial). The framework of what people have been discussing has already been built into the Linux Tutorial (link below). One primary goal is to allow users to add material, whether it be complete articles, glossary entries, or anything else. The problem with the SuSE KB (among other KBs) is that it is a traditional so-called knowledge base where it is a set of answers to specific questions. Plus there little or no inter-relationship between existing articles, let alone other, outside information. Although there is a lot of information it does not take advantage of existing technology and little inter-relationships. The Linux Tutorial already takes advantage of a lot of existing technologies, and we are in the process of expanding on the idea. Linkbat is based on the concept of inter-related KnowledgeUnits (KUs). For example, a CommandKU relates to the files it uses or acts upon. So there is a cross reference between the CommandKU and one or more FileKUs. A concept like "Linux can be started from any partition" is also a KU and it might relate to the fdisk CommandKU and the /dev/hd FileKU. There are PageKUs, which form the basis of the tutorial and they relate to other KUs. The fdisk CmmandKU relates to pages in the tutorial that talk about installing, adding new hard disks, file systems, etc. You do a search on partitions and you get the fdisk CommandKU, the /dev/hd, several different GlossaryKUs, the various tutorial pages and so on. The tutorial is also indexed by Google. The Linux Tutorial already consists of over 300 tutorial pages, hundreds of "MoreInfo" links to other sites, plus a database of over 500 questions and answers to test your knowledge (i.e for certification prep). These have links back to the page that discusses that topic. On each tutorial page you have several "Did You Know?" blubs. Which are short statements. For example, one that I just pulled off is "So-called 'well-known ports' are listed in the file /etc/services". These form the basis of the ConceptKUs and are also links back to the page where that concepts is discussed. Note that these mechanisms are **already** in place and we are working on more. One goal is to mark some of the questions as FAQs. The system then generates a list of FAQs, sorted by topic. You add a new question/answer to the system, mark it as an FAQ and the next time the FAQ is generated, it contains that question. One thing we are already discussing is the issue of approval of entries. Somewhere down the line there has to be a decision, whether it is consensus (votes) or a moderator. With a concensus, you still need someone to push a button to add the material to the system. My idea is a set of moderators or administrators who make **some** decisions. This would be fairly easy for smaller things like new glossary entries or references between different KUs. New articles might be a little harder to manage, but with several admins taking turns to ease the load it would be easier. You could still have a forum by which people vote. Then the admin pushed the add button. We already have much of the database model down. However, we welcome any input. Plus we can use help in coding, as well as writing content. Please take a look a the tutorial (http://www.linux-tutorial.info) as well as the LINKBAT project (http://www.linux-tutorial.info/Linkbat/), which by the way has already been registered with SourceForge. I think that this is what people have been talking about and much of it is already here. Regards, Jim Mohr -- --------------------------------------- "Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden --------------------------------------- The Linux Tutorial needs your help! Visit us at http://www.linux-tutorial.info