On 16 November 2015 at 15:54, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

On 11/16/2015 09:05 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

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On 16 November 2015 at 14:57, wrote:

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-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Per Jessen Gesendet: Mo. 16.11.2015 14:46 An: opensuse@opensuse.org Betreff: Re: [opensuse] Installation problems

Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

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On 11/16/2015 02:16 AM, Per Jessen

wrote:

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Marc Chamberlin wrote:

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With 13.1 going Evergreen (long term

security updates) wouldn't that

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be a better choice?

Yes, you're right, 13.1 is probably the better choice. For all new installations, I use 13.2 myself, but I'm not overly concerned about updates.

-- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.1°C)> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht Ende-----

I do not understand this sorry. At least as long as the conditions of EOL do not change, for him, 13.2 is the better choice even for updates. Provided there is no tipo. 13.1 goes off support (without updates NOW and is partially maintained with security updates). So if you run a server Maybe but.... EOL page https://en.opensuse.org/Lifetime#openSUSE_Leap_and_13.x That states:

EXPECTED First Quarter of 2017 (2 months after release of Leap 42.2) for 132 but for 13.1 with evergreen says: extended community maintenance, support end is currently November 2016.That is: up to the first quarter of 2017 you will get offical security updates for 13.2. So 13.2 is the better choice AFAIK.

Evergreen will extend the supported lifetime of 13.1 for another year

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Evergreen#Supported_distributions

I guess we not know for sure until 13.1 is officially accepted into the Evergreen project.

Based on the previos supported versions the was a 2-3 years support lifetime not just one.

I can tell you, based on my conversations with Wolfgang Rosenauer (who is one of the main Evergreen Maintainers) that he seems to be putting all of his interest and energies into Leap. Given the timing of how Leap was announced after Evergreen support for 13.1 was already announced, I'm not surprised the expected end date for Evergreen 13.1 is a lot shorter than Evergreen 11.4 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/16/2015 08:07 AM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

On 11/16/2015 10:32 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

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On 16 November 2015 at 15:54, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

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On 11/16/2015 09:05 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

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On 16 November 2015 at 14:57, wrote:

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-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Per Jessen Gesendet: Mo. 16.11.2015 14:46 An: opensuse@opensuse.org Betreff: Re: [opensuse] Installation problems

Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

> On 11/16/2015 02:16 AM, Per Jessen

wrote: >> >> Marc Chamberlin wrote: >>

> With 13.1 going Evergreen (long term

security updates) wouldn't that > > be a better choice? >

Yes, you're right, 13.1 is probably the better choice. For all new installations, I use 13.2 myself, but I'm not overly concerned about updates.

-- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.1°C)> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht Ende-----

I do not understand this sorry. At least as long as the conditions of EOL do not change, for him, 13.2 is the better choice even for updates. Provided there is no tipo. 13.1 goes off support (without updates NOW and is partially maintained with security updates). So if you run a server Maybe but.... EOL page https://en.opensuse.org/Lifetime#openSUSE_Leap_and_13.x That states:

EXPECTED First Quarter of 2017 (2 months after release of Leap 42.2) for 132 but for 13.1 with evergreen says: extended community maintenance, support end is currently November 2016.That is: up to the first quarter of 2017 you will get offical security updates for 13.2. So 13.2 is the better choice AFAIK.

Evergreen will extend the supported lifetime of 13.1 for another year

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Evergreen#Supported_distributions

I guess we not know for sure until 13.1 is officially accepted into the Evergreen project.

Based on the previos supported versions the was a 2-3 years support lifetime not just one.

I can tell you, based on my conversations with Wolfgang Rosenauer (who is one of the main Evergreen Maintainers) that he seems to be putting all of his interest and energies into Leap.

Given the timing of how Leap was announced after Evergreen support for 13.1 was already announced, I'm not surprised the expected end date for Evergreen 13.1 is a lot shorter than Evergreen 11.4

Thank you for the info, it will help us on the list to make a better informed decision when helping other users.

Yeah I want to second the thank you for all the info and kind responses given to my questions... I will install 13.2 and hopefully get a couple more years out of my computer.... Kinda makes me sad that I am going to have to give up my old trusty friend, it is an i586 desktop computer that I have had running in my ham radio shack for so many years! But alas I guess the x32 bit days are coming to an end.... Marc.... -- "The Truth is out there" - Spooky -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On November 16, 2015 11:14:11 PM PST, Per Jessen wrote:

Marc Chamberlin wrote:

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Yeah I want to second the thank you for all the info and kind responses given to my questions... I will install 13.2 and hopefully get a couple more years out of my computer.... Kinda makes me sad that I am going to have to give up my old trusty friend, it is an i586 desktop computer that I have had running in my ham radio shack for so many years!

As long as the hardware doesn't slowly die off, there's no reason to give up on it. I have an elderly box running our internal news-server, still running SuSE 8.2. It should have been upgraded and virtualised long ago, but I haven't dared go near the innd config :-)

Heh, and I thought my old 10.2 samba server was a relic. It at least has no contact with the Internet. -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/16/2015 11:51 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

Given the switch from 8 month to 12 month planned release cycles, maybe a better plan would be an extended official 13.1 support period, possibly until May 2016 to give 13.1 users ample time to switch to 13.2, and make 13.2 the Evergreen to follow 11.4, unless 13.2 too will eventually become an Evergreen.

I like that. I still have systems running 13.1 bot 64 and 32 but. To be honest, there are still updates coming though, not just from packman and build service and Apache and opencloud and many of the specialized application repositories, but I've just had some from system updates! -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 16 November 2015 at 17:51, Felix Miata wrote:

Richard Brown composed on 2015-11-16 16:32 (UTC+0100):

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Ken Schneider wrote:

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Richard Brown wrote:

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Evergreen will extend the supported lifetime of 13.1 for another year

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https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Evergreen#Supported_distributions

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I guess we not know for sure until 13.1 is officially accepted into the Evergreen project.

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Based on the previos supported versions the was a 2-3 years support lifetime not just one.

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I can tell you, based on my conversations with Wolfgang Rosenauer (who is one of the main Evergreen Maintainers) that he seems to be putting all of his interest and energies into Leap.

Leap offers only a subset of what the entire long term release-using universe wants, omitting the 32 bit arch that would allow all openSUSE users to continue being supported openSUSE users for the foreseeable future. This is part of the reason for this thread's OP.

Then the 'entire long term release-using universe' needs to find maintainers, developers, and hardware willing to provide long term support for a dying architecture. We're not the only Project that has taken 2015 as an opportunity to drop official support for 32-bit Intel, and while I will not object to any community initiated attempt to find a way to continue support for a little longer, anyone who thinks 32-bit intel has some long term future has a very different view on the world than most.

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Given the timing of how Leap was announced after Evergreen support for 13.1 was already announced, I'm not surprised the expected end date for Evergreen 13.1 is a lot shorter than Evergreen 11.4

Given the history of Evergreen lifetimes, if I were doing a fresh installation now, it would be tough to decide on the better gamble. Evergreen 11.4 continues to accept patches. Its repos contain updates provided as recently as last month. Had I had advance knowledge of this extended life, I would not have abandoned 11.4 for 13.1.

Given the evolution transpiring since 13.1 was selected as the Evergreen to follow 11.4, and that 13.2 looks to be the last ever stable openSUSE release for all current openSUSE users, maybe "official" Evergreening 13.1 should be skipped, replaced by 13.2. This might inconvenience current 13.1 users. However, those who installed 13.1 early on planned to have official support continue only until May 2016. Already they have had an extra 6 months official support, with planned Evergreen start delayed by same 6 months, without the planned Evergreen termination also being delayed.

Given the switch from 8 month to 12 month planned release cycles, maybe a better plan would be an extended official 13.1 support period, possibly until May 2016 to give 13.1 users ample time to switch to 13.2, and make 13.2 the Evergreen to follow 11.4, unless 13.2 too will eventually become an Evergreen.

The 13.1 official release cycle will not be extended any more - as it was based on the release schedule of other products (2 releases + 2 months), the current official end date of Jan 2016 is already much later than it was expected when we released 13.1 (26 months vs the expected lifetime of 18 months) With the extra 10 months planned for Evergreen 13.1 that leads to a total lifetime of 36 months for openSUSE 13.1.. and that's not bad at all for a community release If you want longer than that, then my advice is to find people to track, fix, build, test, publish, and support 13.1 for longer..it's a lot of work, one of the reasons I think Wolfgang is glad Leap is trying to address some of the use cases he was using Evergreen for ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Am 16.11.2015 um 19:16 schrieb Richard Brown:

If you want longer than that, then my advice is to find people to track, fix, build, test, publish, and support 13.1 for longer..it's a lot of work, one of the reasons I think Wolfgang is glad Leap is trying to address some of the use cases he was using Evergreen for ;)

let me comment on this: It is less work than most people think. This is something I wanted to prove with the very first Evergreen (11.1) release. I still believe it can be done with reasonable efforts. But then again contributions after years were still very limited. So in average we were three people. This can even be done as long as they have enough time they can invest into the project. In reality for people doing normal work, probably have family and also other interests, three people are not enough without getting them tired at some point. And to Felix as answer to the other mail: Yes, apparently we failed to raise enough attraction for maintainers to help out. But whom do you (or even I) can blame for that? In my opinion just ourselves as a whole community. Critical mails on a project mailing list are not going to fix this. You need to motivate contributors or find already motivated ones. To achieve this goal we need another way of communication. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 17/11/15 03:51, Felix Miata wrote:

Richard Brown composed on 2015-11-16 16:32 (UTC+0100): [pruned]

Given the timing of how Leap was announced after Evergreen support for 13.1 was already announced, I'm not surprised the expected end date for Evergreen 13.1 is a lot shorter than Evergreen 11.4 Given the history of Evergreen lifetimes, if I were doing a fresh installation now, it would be tough to decide on the better gamble. Evergreen 11.4 continues to accept patches. Its repos contain updates provided as recently as last month. Had I had advance knowledge of this extended life, I would not have abandoned 11.4 for 13.1.

Given the evolution transpiring since 13.1 was selected as the Evergreen to follow 11.4, and that 13.2 looks to be the last ever stable openSUSE release for all current openSUSE users, maybe "official" Evergreening 13.1 should be skipped, replaced by 13.2.

Yesss! Now this is something which I fully support! Make 13.2 the Evergreen openSUSE version! And I tell you what: I am prepared - as I imagine others would be as well - to make a monthly/annual monetary contribution to a fund to pay for the efforts of the people who would maintain it as an Evergreen. But there would have to be a proviso: any "upstream" changes to the KDE desktop (such as the 'Plasma' in 42 and TW or anything resembling Plasma in the future) must be binned.

This might inconvenience current 13.1 users. However, those who installed 13.1 early on planned to have official support continue only until May 2016. Already they have had an extra 6 months official support, with planned Evergreen start delayed by same 6 months, without the planned Evergreen termination also being delayed.

Given the switch from 8 month to 12 month planned release cycles, maybe a better plan would be an extended official 13.1 support period, possibly until May 2016 to give 13.1 users ample time to switch to 13.2, and make 13.2 the Evergreen to follow 11.4, unless 13.2 too will eventually become an Evergreen.

Not "unless 13.2 too will eventually become...." but make it "13.2 MUST become an Evergreen in the immediate future". BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.3.0-4 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 17/11/15 22:35, jdd wrote:

Le 17/11/2015 12:26, Basil Chupin a écrit :

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Not "unless 13.2 too will eventually become...." but make it "13.2 MUST become an Evergreen in the immediate future".

but people used alreay 13.1 in behalf of it becomming Evergreen...

jdd

I haven't used 13.1 for quite some time so you will need to educate me about this: what makes 13.1 special as against 13.2? Both have 32-bit versions, for example. What does 13.1 have which 13.2 doesn't and which would cause people many hassles by upgrading to 13.2? Are there major differences or is it only a matter of reluctance to upgrade simply because 13.1 has been given the title of 'Evergreen'? So, please educate me :-) . BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.3.0-4 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 17/11/15 23:47, Richard Brown wrote:

On 17 November 2015 at 12:55, Basil Chupin wrote:

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On 17/11/15 22:35, jdd wrote:

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Le 17/11/2015 12:26, Basil Chupin a écrit :

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Not "unless 13.2 too will eventually become...." but make it "13.2 MUST become an Evergreen in the immediate future".

but people used alreay 13.1 in behalf of it becomming Evergreen...

jdd

I haven't used 13.1 for quite some time so you will need to educate me about this: what makes 13.1 special as against 13.2? Both have 32-bit versions, for example. What does 13.1 have which 13.2 doesn't and which would cause people many hassles by upgrading to 13.2? Are there major differences or is it only a matter of reluctance to upgrade simply because 13.1 has been given the title of 'Evergreen'? So, please educate me :-) .

BC 13.1 has individuals willing to maintain it as an Evergreen release. Their intention to do so was announced well in advance, and so they feel beholden to do as they promised, even though as Wolfgang has already explained, his intention is to support Evergreen 13.1 for no longer than the minimal period promised.

13.2 does not have people willing to maintain it as an Evergreen release, so it wont be an Evergreen release unless that changes.

That's what makes it special, people are going to be doing the work for 13.1 and not 13.2..

So, the only special thing about 13.1 is that people have said that they will keep 13.1 as an Evergreen. Then if those people maintaining 13.1 as an Evergreen decided that it was prudent to switch their efforts to keeping 13.2 rather than 13.1 as an Evergreen there are no obstacles to impede such a move, correct? BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.3.0-4 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 18/11/15 21:31, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

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So, the only special thing about 13.1 is that people have said that they will keep 13.1 as an Evergreen.

Then if those people maintaining 13.1 as an Evergreen decided that it was prudent to switch their efforts to keeping 13.2 rather than 13.1 as an Evergreen there are no obstacles to impede such a move, correct? It would effect users who decided to position 13.1 as a long term release for their own use as well. They would have to update all their installs from 13.1 to 13.2 to maintain the long term support.

I can 'see' what you are 'saying' but people would have to upgrade from 13.1 to a more recent release sooner or later. So why not sooner? But what is more confusing is that only last week (12 November) there was an Announcement by Marcus Meisnner which stated, "..support for openSUSE 13.1 is coming to an end in 2 months, around January 5th 2016." BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.3.0-4 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 18 November 2015 at 12:00, Basil Chupin wrote:

I can 'see' what you are 'saying' but people would have to upgrade from 13.1 to a more recent release sooner or later. So why not sooner?

GREAT! Finally! Basil has seen the light! Upgrade sooner than later! If that is your logic, then you and almost ever other person should be on Tumbleweed and something like Leap or Evergreen wouldn't make any sense at all *grin* (Yes, I am making this point with my tongue firmly in cheek..I couldn't resist) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/18/2015 2:31 AM, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

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So, the only special thing about 13.1 is that people have said that they will keep 13.1 as an Evergreen.

Then if those people maintaining 13.1 as an Evergreen decided that it was prudent to switch their efforts to keeping 13.2 rather than 13.1 as an Evergreen there are no obstacles to impede such a move, correct?

It would effect users who decided to position 13.1 as a long term release for their own use as well. They would have to update all their installs from 13.1 to 13.2 to maintain the long term support.

But these updates would come from the evergreen repositories like every other update, would they not? If so, updates would happen apace. If not, and some sort of re-install would be necessary, or suddenly selecting new libraries, I can see why that would not be desirable. Some of those 'buntu Long Term Support flow from one LTS to the other via a simple command. I remember rolling my wife's computer LTS Lynx (10.04), then to LDS Pangolin (12.04). She rolled it to Tahr (10.04) herself. She does not deal with change well, and is non-technical unless it involves sewing machines, but the upgrades were flawless in each case. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 17/11/2015 12:55, Basil Chupin a écrit :

I haven't used 13.1 for quite some time so you will need to educate me about this: what makes 13.1 special as against 13.2?

nothing, but upgrading a server is always a problem (else why Evergreen?) and the decision was taken a year ago... jdd -- When will a Label sign her!!? https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=94&v=BeMk3WRh8QI -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/17/2015 08:47 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

That the "intent" to make 13.1 become Evergreen influenced many to base server installs on 13.1, as I did. 13.1 would then be "longer" lived. If Evergreen is not changed to follow 13.2, the *word* is broken.

What is there in 13.2 that cannot be retrofitted to 13.1-Evergreen or obtained via some other repository such as Kernel_Stable or somewhere in the Build? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/17/2015 01:33 PM, John Andersen wrote:

On 11/17/2015 05:54 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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What is there in 13.2 that cannot be retrofitted to 13.1-Evergreen or obtained via some other repository such as Kernel_Stable or somewhere in the Build?

When does 13.1-Evergreen cease to be 13.1?

After you apply kernel updates, and updates to just about every package what major jump causes it to remain 13.1 instead of 13.2? BTRFS? systemd? What?

*THAT* is a *VERY* *VERY* good question. Notionally I'm running 13.1 ''cos that's what is says in /etc/os=release: VERSION="13.1 (Bottle)" But then again, my kernels (and hence BtrFS) comes from the Kernel_Stable repository, my email and browser comes from the the Mozilla repository, all my KDE stuff comes from additional KDE repositories... ... and so it goes. If I did a s/13.2/13.2/ on the list of repositories and "-dup" most of my applications and my kernel would remain unchanged. I'm sure libraries would upgrade, but that might break some thing :-( As far as I can tell a 13.1 evergreen would change little for me. If I had the time I'd go though the RPMs one by one to make sure of that, but I've got better things to do with my time. Perhaps if it ever becomes critical ... maybe ... but I can't see it worth being the effort and the ink we're spending here. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 18/11/15 00:47, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Basil Chupin [11-17-15 06:55]:

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On 17/11/15 22:35, jdd wrote:

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Le 17/11/2015 12:26, Basil Chupin a �crit :

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Not "unless 13.2 too will eventually become...." but make it "13.2 MUST become an Evergreen in the immediate future".

but people used alreay 13.1 in behalf of it becomming Evergreen...

I haven't used 13.1 for quite some time so you will need to educate me about this: what makes 13.1 special as against 13.2? Both have 32-bit versions, for example. What does 13.1 have which 13.2 doesn't and which would cause people many hassles by upgrading to 13.2? Are there major differences or is it only a matter of reluctance to upgrade simply because 13.1 has been given the title of 'Evergreen'? So, please educate me :-) . That the "intent" to make 13.1 become Evergreen influenced many to base server installs on 13.1, as I did. 13.1 would then be "longer" lived. If Evergreen is not changed to follow 13.2, the *word* is broken. Your well-known abusive vocal dislike of plasma5 based apps is *not* a reason for Evergreen to deviate from its spoken word.

Ooooh, "Your well-known abusive vocal dislike of plasma5...", Patrick! "*Abusive* vocal dislike" even! Sheesh! A felony of the first degree I suspect, right? Are you now going to run to the Board with instances of my "abusive vocal" dislikes of Plasma 5? But please have the courtesy of providing me with copies should you do so so that I can see what you consider to be "abusive vocal dislikes", OK? BTW, one cannot be "vocal" when the only way of communicating on these lists is via the written word :-) . Your reference to the "WORD" brought up the lyrics of Surfin' Bird by The Trashmen which was a song played in the film Full Metal Jacket. You'll find the full lyrics here: http://www.rockabilly.nl/lyrics4/s0130.htm But I digress ... and my humble apologies to all for my lapse. Forget about the "WORD" but what you say about people using 13.1 as a server is a different thing. I don't run a sever but how much trouble would it be to upgrade a 13.1 server from 13.1 to 13.2? (Still asking to be heducated.) BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.3.0-4 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/17/2015 03:26 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

But there would have to be a proviso: any "upstream" changes to the KDE desktop (such as the 'Plasma' in 42 and TW or anything resembling Plasma in the future) must be binned.

You had me till that last part. Look, Plasma 5 will be all that is left going forward. Its another forced march, but not anywhere near as bad as the forced 3.5 to KDE4 forced march that was easily and demonstrably two years too early. Sooner or later the missing pieces on Kde 4.xx will find their way into Plasma 5. So banning it is counter productive. And there is no reason both couldn't be available. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org