On 01/13/2012 03:54 PM, Roger Luedecke wrote:

From my understanding GTK3 is fine. The hated thing in Gnome 3 is the GnomeSHell.GTK 2 and 3 are compatible from what I understand. So, why aren't we simply maintaining or porting the old desktop stuff instead of using GNomeShell, as opposed to forks like MATE and Cinnamon?

Different teams I suppose. The GNOME team wants to follow what upstream is doing and they do probably not have the bandwidth or the desire to maintain a "semi fork" with he GNOME 2 look. Plus there's always the fallback mode, so they say. Therefore whatever effort is undertaken to hold on to GNOME2 things will have to be outside the GNOME project and lead by a different team. My personal opinion is that there will not be a sufficient number of developers to form a viable upstream community, similar to the KDE3 fork. This make maintenance within the openSUSE project extremely difficult. I switched to XFCE quite a while ago, before GNOME 3 was the default GNOME implementation and have been quite happy with it. XFCE upstream community is reasonably active and maintenance in the openSUSE project is in good shape. My $0.02 Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 22:00 +0100, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 12:54 -0800, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

From my understanding GTK3 is fine. The hated thing in Gnome 3 is the GnomeSHell.GTK 2 and 3 are compatible from what I understand. So, why aren't we simply maintaining or porting the old desktop stuff instead of using GNomeShell, as opposed to forks like MATE and Cinnamon?

GTK2 and GTK3 are not API compatible. A bunch of programs have been ported, but the efforts are not just to be underrated.

GTK2 and GTK3 are insofar compatible that they can be parallel installed.

Dominique

How bad is the difference? I imagine that if it isn't too far off it would be possible to create a translation matrix to do most of the tedious porting work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 13:34 -0800, Roger Luedecke wrote:

On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 22:00 +0100, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 12:54 -0800, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

From my understanding GTK3 is fine. The hated thing in Gnome 3 is the GnomeSHell.GTK 2 and 3 are compatible from what I understand. So, why aren't we simply maintaining or porting the old desktop stuff instead of using GNomeShell, as opposed to forks like MATE and Cinnamon?

GTK2 and GTK3 are not API compatible. A bunch of programs have been ported, but the efforts are not just to be underrated.

GTK2 and GTK3 are insofar compatible that they can be parallel installed.

Dominique

How bad is the difference? I imagine that if it isn't too far off it would be possible to create a translation matrix to do most of the tedious porting work.

http://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/3.3/gtk-migrating-2-to-3.html D. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 23:39 -1000, kanenas@hawaii.rr.com wrote:

On Friday 13 January 2012 11:32:58 am Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 16:14 -0500, Robert Schweikert wrote:

...

On 01/13/2012 03:54 PM, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

From my understanding GTK3 is fine. The hated thing in Gnome 3 is the GnomeSHell.GTK 2 and 3 are compatible from what I understand. So, why aren't we simply maintaining or porting the old desktop stuff instead of using GNomeShell, as opposed to forks like MATE and Cinnamon?

Different teams I suppose. The GNOME team wants to follow what upstream is doing and they do probably not have the bandwidth or the desire to maintain a "semi fork" with he GNOME 2 look. Plus there's always the fallback mode, so they say.

Therefore whatever effort is undertaken to hold on to GNOME2 things will have to be outside the GNOME project and lead by a different team.

My personal opinion is that there will not be a sufficient number of developers to form a viable upstream community, similar to the KDE3 fork. This make maintenance within the openSUSE project extremely difficult.

I switched to XFCE quite a while ago, before GNOME 3 was the default GNOME implementation and have been quite happy with it. XFCE upstream community is reasonably active and maintenance in the openSUSE project is in good shape.

My $0.02 Robert

-- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147

Honestly, besides that I'm very much not fond of Gnome Shell there are other concerns. For example, the insistence of needing 3D acceleration will be bad for business desktop users who haven't needed such a thing, and thus require massive upgrades to make Gnome work properly. Plus, lets face it... even Grandma can use Gnome 2. The new paradigm isn't an improvement in usability as anticipated. This concerns me further with Enterprise users... demo this shit, and see how quickly Windows gets the upper hand in Enterprise environments. As far as that goes, if we can accept the issues of hardware acceleration then I would say Cinnamon essentially has the right idea. Reinventing the wheel keeps things from rolling. I also take issue with abandoning Compiz which is likely the best compositing thingamajig on the market. Would it be that hard to port the old style panels and such to GTK3?

you are missing the point: kde4 and gnome3 are ms conspiracies.... d. Sometimes I wonder, lol. KDE4 is a good design... since its modular, it doesn't remove control and insane configurability from the user... not to mention it WILL run without compositing.

Gnome 3 on the other hand just pisses me off. And all the squawk about it being a new paradigm is bullshit since you can replicate EVERYTHING it does in concept simply by using screen edges with compiz, docky, and the special Main Menu Novell put together for SuSE also has a nice big, potentially full screen app launcher. Quite frankly, its time for a revolt! Gnome users need to flat out boycott Gnome 3 and support MATE, or at least Cinnamon. In 12.1 KDE 4.7 was so damn glitchy and sluggish I finally just rolled back to Gnome on 11.4. Honestly... now that I'm actually getting acquainted with it, I'm falling in love with it and can't imagine why such a well polished thing is going to be utterly f*&^$d off. Gnome was about as close as we have gotten to the holy grail of desktop Linux, and now its being twisted into some awkward, ugly, inversatile, monolithic monstrosity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 12:04, K. Dennis Leyendecker wrote:

On 14.01.2012 11:04, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

Sometimes I wonder, lol. KDE4 is a good design... since its modular, it doesn't remove control and insane configurability from the user... not to mention it WILL run without compositing.

+1 I really love KDE for that and for the fact that I can easily configure it to my needs.

Same here. the combination of virtual desktops, activities (they work now), and the plasma thing, I can configure my desktop to do what i want and need... AND.. since 12.1, it's rock solid stable. I've got no significant issues (only a couple minor bugs which have been reported and he workarounds) with KDE.

...

Quite frankly, its time for a revolt! Gnome users need to flat out boycott Gnome 3 and support MATE, or at least Cinnamon.

And what about those users, who are happy with GNOME 3? They're existing. Really.

And therein lies the perception problem with any change. The people who don't like it, complain (as they should)... but... they are the only ones commenting on the interface changes.... this presents a VERY lopsided view of things when you look at the opinions of people towards that change... whatever it is... KDE3 to KDE4 transition... Gnome2 to Gnome3 or whatever. As amazing as it may seem to those who are annoyed and frustrated with Gnome 3 or KDE4... there are more than likely a LOT more users who like it and are quietly using it. C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 5:57 AM, C wrote:

On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 12:04, K. Dennis Leyendecker wrote:

...

On 14.01.2012 11:04, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

Sometimes I wonder, lol. KDE4 is a good design... since its modular, it doesn't remove control and insane configurability from the user... not to mention it WILL run without compositing.

+1 I really love KDE for that and for the fact that I can easily configure it to my needs.

Same here.  the combination of virtual desktops, activities (they work now), and the plasma thing, I can configure my desktop to do what i want and need... AND.. since 12.1, it's rock solid stable.  I've got no significant issues (only a couple minor bugs which have been reported and he workarounds) with KDE.

...

...

Quite frankly, its time for a revolt! Gnome users need to flat out boycott Gnome 3 and support MATE, or at least Cinnamon.

And what about those users, who are happy with GNOME 3? They're existing. Really.

And therein lies the perception problem with any change.  The people who don't like it, complain (as they should)... but... they are the only ones commenting on the interface changes.... this presents a VERY lopsided view of things when you look at the opinions of people towards that change... whatever it is... KDE3 to KDE4 transition... Gnome2 to Gnome3 or whatever.

As amazing as it may seem to those who are annoyed and frustrated with Gnome 3 or KDE4... there are more than likely a LOT more users who like it and are quietly using it.

C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Roger, If you like Gnome 2, look for Cinnamon. http://lizards.opensuse.org/2011/12/29/cinnamon-on-opensuse/ Give you back the fell of Gnome 2. -- Terror PUP a.k.a Chuck "PUP" Payne (678) 636-9678 ----------------------------------------- Discover it! Enjoy it! Share it! openSUSE Linux. ----------------------------------------- openSUSE -- en.opensuse.org/User:Terrorpup openSUSE Ambassador/openSUSE Member skype,twiiter,identica,friendfeed -- terrorpup freenode(irc) --terrorpup/lupinstein Register Linux Userid: 155363 Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD,  an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-01-14 15:20, Rajko M. wrote:

It is nothing different with any other activity, so on each one complaining laud we can count on at least 5-6 silent happy "customers".

Maybe, maybe not. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk8RoBkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XBzgCeMj/WdFQodJ9hcP50AEaHMETL 0oYAn1EKHf1VjCeCkfwz7rnTL8kCI9C3 =Aluq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2012-01-14 at 12:04 +0100, K. Dennis Leyendecker wrote:

On 14.01.2012 11:04, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

Sometimes I wonder, lol. KDE4 is a good design... since its modular, it doesn't remove control and insane configurability from the user... not to mention it WILL run without compositing.

+1 I really love KDE for that and for the fact that I can easily configure it to my needs.

...

Gnome 3 on the other hand just pisses me off. And all the squawk about it being a new paradigm is bullshit since you can replicate EVERYTHING it does in concept simply by using screen edges with compiz, docky, and the special Main Menu Novell put together for SuSE also has a nice big, potentially full screen app launcher.

Quite frankly, its time for a revolt! Gnome users need to flat out boycott Gnome 3 and support MATE, or at least Cinnamon.

And what about those users, who are happy with GNOME 3? They're existing. Really. What REALLY changed with Gnome 3? The desktop shell is the only real change. That experience can be replicated with already existing technology. Honestly, the only people I hear saying they are pleased with Gnome3 are the extremist fanboys. Those are the folks who have too much emotional investment in Gnome to admit it sucks.

...

In 12.1 KDE 4.7 was so damn glitchy and sluggish I finally just rolled back to Gnome on 11.4. Honestly... now that I'm actually getting acquainted with it, I'm falling in love with it and can't imagine why such a well polished thing is going to be utterly f*&^$d off. Gnome was about as close as we have gotten to the holy grail of desktop Linux, and now its being twisted into some awkward, ugly, inversatile, monolithic monstrosity.

Well, I had have some GNOME 2 installations in the past, but I always build me a plain-GNOME-2 environment, means to create a dock with three menus on the top of the desktop. I also didn't used the Novell menu that often, due to I couldn't work with it that well (The menu showed only ten programs and then a button to show a list with more. In the time I scroll the list, I would have opened the program over the shell at least ten times.) That criticism is also valid to Gnome 3 which will not permit you to use a traditional start menu. Gnome3 says that is too hard for you to comprehend.

The thing you can do is, to package Mate or other GNOME 2 forks for openSUSE.

--kdl

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 5:57 AM, C wrote:

...

On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 12:04, K. Dennis Leyendecker wrote:

...

On 14.01.2012 11:04, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

Sometimes I wonder, lol. KDE4 is a good design... since its modular, it doesn't remove control and insane configurability from the user... not to mention it WILL run without compositing.

+1 I really love KDE for that and for the fact that I can easily configure it to my needs.

Same here. the combination of virtual desktops, activities (they work now), and the plasma thing, I can configure my desktop to do what i want and need... AND.. since 12.1, it's rock solid stable. I've got no significant issues (only a couple minor bugs which have been reported and he workarounds) with KDE.

...

...

Quite frankly, its time for a revolt! Gnome users need to flat out boycott Gnome 3 and support MATE, or at least Cinnamon.

And what about those users, who are happy with GNOME 3? They're existing. Really.

And therein lies the perception problem with any change. The people who don't like it, complain (as they should)... but... they are the only ones commenting on the interface changes.... this presents a VERY lopsided view of things when you look at the opinions of people towards that change... whatever it is... KDE3 to KDE4 transition... Gnome2 to Gnome3 or whatever.

As amazing as it may seem to those who are annoyed and frustrated with Gnome 3 or KDE4... there are more than likely a LOT more users who like it and are quietly using it.

C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Roger,

If you like Gnome 2, look for Cinnamon.

http://lizards.opensuse.org/2011/12/29/cinnamon-on-opensuse/

Give you back the fell of Gnome 2.

-- Terror PUP a.k.a Chuck "PUP" Payne

(678) 636-9678 ----------------------------------------- Discover it! Enjoy it! Share it! openSUSE Linux. ----------------------------------------- openSUSE -- en.opensuse.org/User:Terrorpup openSUSE Ambassador/openSUSE Member skype,twiiter,identica,friendfeed -- terrorpup freenode(irc) --terrorpup/lupinstein Register Linux Userid: 155363

Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. If you see the original post I made mention of Cinnamon, and frankly

On Sat, 2012-01-14 at 06:47 -0500, Chuck Payne wrote: think they have the right idea in many regards. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 14. Januar 2012, 13:19:36 schrieb Roger Luedecke:

What REALLY changed with Gnome 3? The desktop shell is the only real change. That experience can be replicated with already existing technology. Honestly, the only people I hear saying they are pleased with Gnome3 are the extremist fanboys. Those are the folks who have too much emotional investment in Gnome to admit it sucks.

The sad – or should I say funny? – thing about this kind of discussion within the linux community is that both groups argue "x/y is better" or "I like x/y better" just that one likes x and the other y. Yet while liking x is a clear sign of fanboyism, liking y better is regarded reasonable. But it gets even more "funny" because those that think of themselves as not being fanboys but reasonable, tend to use a kind of language that shows more signs of subjectiveness, exaggeration, over-simplification, group-think, insularity, fanatic devotion, emotionality, ideology etc. than those labeled as fanboys. IMHO – as soon as the term fanboy comes-up, Godwin's law is close. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 14.01.2012 23:16, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

...

What REALLY changed with Gnome 3? The desktop shell is the only real change. That experience can be replicated with already existing technology. Honestly, the only people I hear saying they are pleased with Gnome3 are the extremist fanboys. Those are the folks who have too much emotional investment in Gnome to admit it sucks. The sad – or should I say funny? – thing about this kind of discussion within

Am Samstag, 14. Januar 2012, 13:19:36 schrieb Roger Luedecke: the linux community is that both groups argue "x/y is better" or "I like x/y better" just that one likes x and the other y. Yet while liking x is a clear sign of fanboyism, liking y better is regarded reasonable.

Well, maybe that's because a desktop environment is one of the most elemental things you use if you're using a modern computer. So, such discussions are typical due to a high rate of bike shedding.

But it gets even more "funny" because those that think of themselves as not being fanboys but reasonable, tend to use a kind of language that shows more signs of subjectiveness, exaggeration, over-simplification, group-think, insularity, fanatic devotion, emotionality, ideology etc. than those labeled as fanboys.

IMHO – as soon as the term fanboy comes-up, Godwin's law is close.

May I bring the first one? I'd be glad to refer to the "interface nazis" term ;-) -- Kim Leyendecker, openSUSE Wiki Team GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | leyendecker@opensuse.org http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2012-01-13 at 13:32 -0800, Roger Luedecke wrote:

Honestly, besides that I'm very much not fond of Gnome Shell there are other concerns. For example, the insistence of needing 3D acceleration will be bad for business desktop users who haven't needed such a thing, and thus require massive upgrades to make Gnome work properly.

Indeed.

Plus, lets face it... even Grandma can use Gnome 2. The new paradigm isn't an improvement in usability as anticipated. This concerns me further with Enterprise users... demo this shit, and see how quickly Windows gets the upper hand in Enterprise environments.

Unless people go to xfce or similar.

As far as that goes, if we can accept the issues of hardware acceleration then I would say Cinnamon essentially has the right idea.

I like it. I hope to see it here.

Reinventing the wheel keeps things from rolling. I also take issue with abandoning Compiz which is likely the best compositing thingamajig on the market. Would it be that hard to port the old style panels and such to GTK3?

I did not like compiz either. By the way: Linus Torvalds dubs GNOME 3 'unholy mess' http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/05/linus_slams_gnome_three/ “Linux daddy Linus Torvalds has dropped GNOME 3 in favor of the Xfce graphical desktop interface, dubbing GNOME 3 an "unholy mess".” - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk8SEpsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V6sgCgkSRt9C4+PTnBQaUMAKF+rBgJ vt8AmQEYJ0PrYgv17f4btv6MdZhHm10H =wAyI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 14.01.2012 22:19, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

What REALLY changed with Gnome 3? The desktop shell is the only real change. That experience can be replicated with already existing technology. Honestly, the only people I hear saying they are pleased with Gnome3 are the extremist fanboys. Those are the folks who have too much emotional investment in Gnome to admit it sucks.

I don't think so. I also heard about people who used GNOME in version 3 the first time, and who are satisfied with it.

...

...

...

...

...

In 12.1 KDE 4.7 was so damn glitchy and sluggish I finally just rolled back to Gnome on 11.4. Honestly... now that I'm actually getting acquainted with it, I'm falling in love with it and can't imagine why such a well polished thing is going to be utterly f*&^$d off. Gnome was about as close as we have gotten to the holy grail of desktop Linux, and now its being twisted into some awkward, ugly, inversatile, monolithic monstrosity.

Well, I had have some GNOME 2 installations in the past, but I always build me a plain-GNOME-2 environment, means to create a dock with three menus on the top of the desktop. I also didn't used the Novell menu that often, due to I couldn't work with it that well (The menu showed only ten programs and then a button to show a list with more. In the time I scroll the list, I would have opened the program over the shell at least ten times.)

That criticism is also valid to Gnome 3 which will not permit you to use a traditional start menu. Gnome3 says that is too hard for you to comprehend.

I haven't said that it's all better with GNOME 3. From my point of view, both are bullshit, because /I/ don't like them. Nevertheless, they're both desktop environments I would suggest to people, if they ask me.

Anyway, GNOME 3 definitely is a new way of desktop experience, but others are following that idea, like Unity or Windows 8. I guess the last one will force most of the people to "love" such ideas, so in the end, GNOME 3 was the right way.

If you still don't like it, that's okay. That's why there's KDE, Xfce, LXDE and so many others, I'd grow old if I'd count them all ;-)

-- Kim Leyendecker, openSUSE Wiki Team GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | leyendecker@opensuse.org http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds On a more subjective note I find it dismaying since KDE which I am more

On Sat, 2012-01-14 at 23:36 +0100, K. Dennis Leyendecker wrote: partial to showed so many issues this time around. Thus I was forced to use a different environment, in this case rolling back to the Gnome 2 of 11.4. With Gnome3, this won't be a viable option. I'll be forced into XFCE or LXDE, or even yet some more obscure solution. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On Friday, 2012-01-13 at 13:32 -0800, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

Honestly, besides that I'm very much not fond of Gnome Shell there are other concerns. For example, the insistence of needing 3D acceleration will be bad for business desktop users who haven't needed such a thing, and thus require massive upgrades to make Gnome work properly.

Indeed.

...

Plus, lets face it... even Grandma can use Gnome 2. The new paradigm isn't an improvement in usability as anticipated. This concerns me further with Enterprise users... demo this shit, and see how quickly Windows gets the upper hand in Enterprise environments.

Unless people go to xfce or similar.

...

As far as that goes, if we can accept the issues of hardware acceleration then I would say Cinnamon essentially has the right idea.

I like it. I hope to see it here.

...

Reinventing the wheel keeps things from rolling. I also take issue with abandoning Compiz which is likely the best compositing thingamajig on the market. Would it be that hard to port the old style panels and such to GTK3?

I did not like compiz either. I like compiz simply because it works very well, and smoothly... whereas KWin chokes painfully on operations that compiz make look like childs

On Sun, 2012-01-15 at 00:41 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote: play.

By the way:

Linus Torvalds dubs GNOME 3 'unholy mess' http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/05/linus_slams_gnome_three/

“Linux daddy Linus Torvalds has dropped GNOME 3 in favor of the Xfce graphical desktop interface, dubbing GNOME 3 an "unholy mess".”

I personally worry a bit extra when Linus says something sucks. I mean... we wouldn't be here were it not for him. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On Friday, 2012-01-13 at 13:32 -0800, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

Honestly, besides that I'm very much not fond of Gnome Shell there are other concerns. For example, the insistence of needing 3D acceleration will be bad for business desktop users who haven't needed such a thing, and thus require massive upgrades to make Gnome work properly.

Indeed.

...

Plus, lets face it... even Grandma can use Gnome 2. The new paradigm isn't an improvement in usability as anticipated. This concerns me further with Enterprise users... demo this shit, and see how quickly Windows gets the upper hand in Enterprise environments.

Unless people go to xfce or similar.

...

As far as that goes, if we can accept the issues of hardware acceleration then I would say Cinnamon essentially has the right idea.

I like it. I hope to see it here.

...

Reinventing the wheel keeps things from rolling. I also take issue with abandoning Compiz which is likely the best compositing thingamajig on the market. Would it be that hard to port the old style panels and such to GTK3?

I did not like compiz either. I like compiz simply because it works very well, and smoothly... whereas KWin chokes painfully on operations that compiz make look like childs

On Sun, 2012-01-15 at 00:41 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote: play.

...

By the way:

Linus Torvalds dubs GNOME 3 'unholy mess' http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/05/linus_slams_gnome_three/

“Linux daddy Linus Torvalds has dropped GNOME 3 in favor of the Xfce graphical desktop interface, dubbing GNOME 3 an "unholy mess".”

I personally worry a bit extra when Linus says something sucks. I mean... we wouldn't be here were it not for him.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Some of us say nothing and continue to use an older supported stable openSUSE version of our chosen desktop environment and don't rush to upgrade like headless chickens just because a new release is out. All releases have horror stories. Some are just worse then others. Thanks for being test cases those that are. Steven -- ____________ Steven L Hess ARS KC6KGE DM05gd22 Skype user flamebait Cell 661 487 0357 (Facetime) Google Voice 661 769 6201 openSUSE  Linux 11.4 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2012-01-14 at 18:04 -0800, Steven Hess wrote:

On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On Friday, 2012-01-13 at 13:32 -0800, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

Honestly, besides that I'm very much not fond of Gnome Shell there are other concerns. For example, the insistence of needing 3D acceleration will be bad for business desktop users who haven't needed such a thing, and thus require massive upgrades to make Gnome work properly.

Indeed.

...

Plus, lets face it... even Grandma can use Gnome 2. The new paradigm isn't an improvement in usability as anticipated. This concerns me further with Enterprise users... demo this shit, and see how quickly Windows gets the upper hand in Enterprise environments.

Unless people go to xfce or similar.

...

As far as that goes, if we can accept the issues of hardware acceleration then I would say Cinnamon essentially has the right idea.

I like it. I hope to see it here.

...

Reinventing the wheel keeps things from rolling. I also take issue with abandoning Compiz which is likely the best compositing thingamajig on the market. Would it be that hard to port the old style panels and such to GTK3?

I did not like compiz either. I like compiz simply because it works very well, and smoothly... whereas KWin chokes painfully on operations that compiz make look like childs

On Sun, 2012-01-15 at 00:41 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote: play.

...

By the way:

Linus Torvalds dubs GNOME 3 'unholy mess' http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/05/linus_slams_gnome_three/

“Linux daddy Linus Torvalds has dropped GNOME 3 in favor of the Xfce graphical desktop interface, dubbing GNOME 3 an "unholy mess".”

I personally worry a bit extra when Linus says something sucks. I mean... we wouldn't be here were it not for him.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Some of us say nothing and continue to use an older supported stable openSUSE version of our chosen desktop environment and don't rush to upgrade like headless chickens just because a new release is out. All releases have horror stories. Some are just worse then others. Thanks for being test cases those that are.

Steven -- ____________ Steven L Hess ARS KC6KGE DM05gd22 Skype user flamebait Cell 661 487 0357 (Facetime) Google Voice 661 769 6201 openSUSE Linux 11.4 Having been a KDE fan, I tend to look forward to releases since it usually ensures significant improvements to KDE itself. But in fact, you are right. 12.2 proved troublesome enough I rolled back to 11.4 and chose Gnome as my DE of choice.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 18:07:37 -0800, Roger Luedecke wrote:

* It is monolithic as opposed to modular

I don't see it that way. The way extensions are implemented seems to be quite modular.

* It is dependent on compositing

That's true and can be problematic. Indeed, I cannot run it with the fglrx driver on one of my systems - that dependency seems to make the current fglrx driver unstable in certain configurations.

* It is unconfigurable, removing choice and forcing users into a single workflow, that has been shown to have a couple critical flaws.

I find it to be fairly configurable, but I also find the workflow works well for me. I did have to adapt, but I have found that with this particular workflow, I'm a lot more productive than I was with GNOME2. Maybe that's not entirely due to GNOME3's paradigm, but certainly the switch made me look at how I was doing things. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Saturday, January 14, 2012 07:52:23 PM Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

And, for every one that complains vocally, there are also many that are not happy but do not complain in public.

Excellent point.

Eh, if you didn't noticed I was speaking about ratio. Number 5-6 assumes that happy vs. not happy is 50-50, which in practice means very bad distro that can't last as long as openSUSE does. So, be happy openSUSE is a good distro. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 22:48:37 -0500, Carl Hartung wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 01:58:34 +0000 (UTC) Jim Henderson wrote:

...

I like GNOME3. It has some problems (one that bugs me a lot is when shell crashes and I can't recover my running apps - having that happen with VirtualBox running is NOT a good time), but on balance, I like it because it *feels* minimalistic.

I realize this is a bit of a tangent, but I'd like to learn more about the GNOME 3 "shell" crashes you're experiencing (I'm on oS 11.4 GNOME 2 atm.) I mean, what exactly is it taking out? How do you recover?

The only option I have to recover is to logout and log back in. When it bombs out, I get the "Oh no, somthing happened!" screen and there really aren't any other options. I do wish it was more graceful in that recovery.

Related: Do you think you would be similarly affected if your VMs were starting and stopping gracefully, in the background, as services? I'm concluding from what you've written here that you're managing your VMs from your desktop using the VirtualBox desktop GUI. I really wanted the VMs to start and stop independently of my desktop and for this to happen transparently in the background. To my joy, I discovered openSUSE has this functionality built-in. I now have this in my System Services (Run Level Editor):

vboxadd 2,3,5 VirtualBox Linux Additions Kernel modules vboxdrv 2,3,5 VirtualBox Linux Kernel Module vboxes 3,5 Autostart Virtual Box(sic) VMs

I've thought about changing from using VirtualBox's GUI to launching the VMs in the background and using a remote desktop. I know that can be done (because I played with that a little bit when I started built my first VBox VM - an 11.4 VM to run Pan in because it doesn't run properly on G3 yet). I hadn't considered just running the VM automatically, though. The laptop certainly has the horsepower to do that. One of the things I use the WinXP VM for is watching Netflix streaming, though, and I'm not sure that would work well with an RDP solution. But running Framemaker? Yeah, that'd work. :) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 05:54:32 +0000 (UTC) Jim Henderson wrote: 8<---- snipped ----

The only option I have to recover is to logout and log back in. When it bombs out, I get the "Oh no, somthing happened!" screen and there really aren't any other options.

I do wish it was more graceful in that recovery.

Thanks for the more detailed description. I definitely can't afford to toy with behavior like that outside a test VM or spare box right now. 8<---- snipped ----

I've thought about changing from using VirtualBox's GUI to launching the VMs in the background and using a remote desktop. I know that can be done (because I played with that a little bit when I started built my first VBox VM - an 11.4 VM to run Pan in because it doesn't run properly on G3 yet).

I hadn't considered just running the VM automatically, though. The laptop certainly has the horsepower to do that.

It adds a small but noticeable delay to my shutdowns and time-to-desktop here (2 GHz dual core) but it's pretty negligible.

One of the things I use the WinXP VM for is watching Netflix streaming, though, and I'm not sure that would work well with an RDP solution. But running Framemaker? Yeah, that'd work. :)

That would be an interesting experiment. Too bad my VMs are 'headless' by design or I'd try it. Thanks again for humoring my curiosity ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 15.01.2012 00:41, Carlos E. R. wrote:

By the way:

Linus Torvalds dubs GNOME 3 'unholy mess' http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/05/linus_slams_gnome_three/

“Linux daddy Linus Torvalds has dropped GNOME 3 in favor of the Xfce graphical desktop interface, dubbing GNOME 3 an "unholy mess".”

With 3.2, Linus changed his attitude towards GNOME 3. It's a bit more positive now. On the other hand, Linus also called the GNOME devs "interface nazis" during the development of GNOME 2.x, so he might not be a GNOME fan anyway. Nevertheless, that's just Linus' opinion. If he would say, openSUSE sucks, would you install another distro only of that? -- Kim Leyendecker, openSUSE Wiki Team GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | leyendecker@opensuse.org http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2012-01-14 at 18:07 -0800, Roger Luedecke wrote:

Actually I agree with you. I personally find Gnome 3 not to be too bad, so long as I'm using it on my netbook. However, this doesn't negate the concerns raised. * It is monolithic as opposed to modular

http://extensions.gnome.org

* It is dependent on compositing

Work in Progress Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 02:05:49 -0500, Carl Hartung wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 05:54:32 +0000 (UTC) Jim Henderson wrote: 8<---- snipped ----

...

The only option I have to recover is to logout and log back in. When it bombs out, I get the "Oh no, somthing happened!" screen and there really aren't any other options.

I do wish it was more graceful in that recovery.

Thanks for the more detailed description. I definitely can't afford to toy with behavior like that outside a test VM or spare box right now.

It seems to come and go - I think it might be related to odd suspend/ resume behaviour on my laptop (sometimes after a resume, I can't do anything - but it's inconsistent at best) or when updates come down.

...

I hadn't considered just running the VM automatically, though. The laptop certainly has the horsepower to do that.

It adds a small but noticeable delay to my shutdowns and time-to-desktop here (2 GHz dual core) but it's pretty negligible.

Do you save the current state in the VMs or shut them down completely? (I've taken to just saving the current state as that's quicker in most instances).

...

One of the things I use the WinXP VM for is watching Netflix streaming, though, and I'm not sure that would work well with an RDP solution. But running Framemaker? Yeah, that'd work. :)

That would be an interesting experiment. Too bad my VMs are 'headless' by design or I'd try it.

It works fairly well. The laptop in question outputs HDMI at 1080p (or 1080i, I haven't noticed which my HK says its using) and will do audio over HDMI as well, and it seems to do the 5.1 that's advertised. I can run Netflix full screen and the performance is very good. The system is an 8-core i7 laptop, but even running with the powersave power management profile the performance is good.

Thanks again for humoring my curiosity ;-)

No problem. :) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 08:50:31 +0100, K. Dennis Leyendecker wrote:

Nevertheless, that's just Linus' opinion. If he would say, openSUSE sucks, would you install another distro only of that?

Indeed, and I've said it before - Linus certainly is entitled to have an opinion about things, and I respect him a lot for what he's done on the kernel - but hero worship to the level of "Linus says it sucks, therefore it must"? That doesn't make any sense to me. He's a person and has his own preferences and opinions. Those preferences and opinions are entirely subjective, and when you start looking at subjectivity, others' opinions on the matter really don't (or shouldn't) have a lot of weight. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:11:09 -0500, Carl Hartung wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:52:22 +0000 (UTC) Jim Henderson wrote: 8<---- snipped ----

...

It seems to come and go - I think it might be related to odd suspend/ resume behaviour on my laptop (sometimes after a resume, I can't do anything - but it's inconsistent at best) or when updates come down.

Ah, well, that's a bit different then. Probably as you've alluded a system specific thing...

Could be, though since reinstalling a few RPMs it has been somewhat better. I think something might've gotten corrupted with one of the suspends not working properly and having to do an unclean shutdown. It's generally pretty good, though.

8<---- snipped ----

...

Do you save the current state in the VMs or shut them down completely? (I've taken to just saving the current state as that's quicker in most instances).

I didn't modify the default configuration which saves state. I'm happy with it. I imagine shutdowns and time-to-desktop could be considerably longer otherwise.

Good to know, think I'll have to play with that some more. :)

8<---- snipped ----

...

The system is an 8-core i7 laptop, but even running with the powersave power management profile the performance is good.

:-) "good?" I should hope so. That's a scream'n setup for a laptop! I'll bet you wouldn't even notice the difference!

It's one of the Dell Inspiron 17R laptops - Sandy Bridge, so a few graphics issues (only with stuff like Minecraft, though), but I expect that'll get sorted out in due course. :) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2012-01-16 at 16:50 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 16/01/12 16:37, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:11:09 -0500, Carl Hartung wrote:

I have pruned the rest of your text because I don't have anything to contribute to what was stated.

I have to admit that I have not been following this thread except for the first few posts from which I gathered the argument for/against Gnome3 Vs Gnome2 all over again (and again and again).

With this background to my post now, have a look at this:

http://www.networkworld.com/slideshow/25030?source=NWWNLE_nlt_linux_2012-01-...

and tell me if this contributes in any way to the G3 vs G2 "debate"? :-)

BC

-- It is easy to convince people of something, but hard to keep them convinced. Niccolo Machiavelli

Not really sure what that link adds to the debate. Slide number two is of particular interest, and I think we should port that greetermajig. http://www.networkworld.com/slideshow/25030?source=NWWNLE_nlt_linux_2012-01-... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/01/12 21:21, Roger Luedecke wrote:

On Mon, 2012-01-16 at 16:50 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 16/01/12 16:37, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:11:09 -0500, Carl Hartung wrote: I have pruned the rest of your text because I don't have anything to contribute to what was stated.

I have to admit that I have not been following this thread except for the first few posts from which I gathered the argument for/against Gnome3 Vs Gnome2 all over again (and again and again).

With this background to my post now, have a look at this:

http://www.networkworld.com/slideshow/25030?source=NWWNLE_nlt_linux_2012-01-...

and tell me if this contributes in any way to the G3 vs G2 "debate"? :-)

BC

-- It is easy to convince people of something, but hard to keep them convinced. Niccolo Machiavelli

Not really sure what that link adds to the debate. Slide number two is of particular interest, and I think we should port that greetermajig. http://www.networkworld.com/slideshow/25030?source=NWWNLE_nlt_linux_2012-01-...

I actually thought that someone would find slide #5 interesting. BC -- It is easy to convince people of something, but hard to keep them convinced. Niccolo Machiavelli -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* K. Dennis Leyendecker [01-16-12 12:14]: ....

In the end, GNOME 3 beats them all. Mint will be a fish bowl for all these "GNOME-3-sucks-I-want-back-something-sane"-users, also known as "learning resistant" or "classical desktop lovers". Ubuntu will stay for the beginners, fanboys and for your TV (yeah, it's comming) and openSUSE will satisfy the rest ;-)

BTW, I did some provocative comments about Ubuntu, Unity and Mint, if anyone feels offended by that, I can understand if you want to punch me in the face (not literally, on the thread of course ;-) ), so

1,2,3,4 fight! ;-)

--kdl

PS: Ubuntu's quite okay for beginners and professionals who don't want to configure their systems that much and just need something working, and Unity has it advantages, for sure, but to do something _real_ important with it, it falls flat on its face.

The "discussion", not anyone in particular, seems awfully/woefully akin to the *noise* recently about kde4 vs kde3 :^) I guess there will always be..... ps: comment not directed at *anyone*, merely an observation. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2012-01-14 at 17:55 -0800, Roger Luedecke wrote:

On Sun, 2012-01-15 at 00:41 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I did not like compiz either. I like compiz simply because it works very well, and smoothly... whereas KWin chokes painfully on operations that compiz make look like childs play.

I never got it to work right, even when it came enabled by default on install. Something always was broken. As I did not like it, I did not bother to report, I simply removed it (after realizing what was to blame, ie, compiz). Pity.

...

“Linux daddy Linus Torvalds has dropped GNOME 3 in favor of the Xfce graphical desktop interface, dubbing GNOME 3 an "unholy mess".”

I personally worry a bit extra when Linus says something sucks. I mean... we wouldn't be here were it not for him.

That's the point :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk8XY8gACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WM+ACaAmvDnBqH5f+vmnZ26OmAm9B0 TtwAoJXnJtjUc+069+p7PsFBXsct7Efg =4CjA -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 13/01/12 17:54, Roger Luedecke wrote: So, why

aren't we simply maintaining or porting the old desktop stuff instead of using GNomeShell, as opposed to forks like MATE and Cinnamon?

That phrase is an oxymoron, there is no such thing as "simple porting" a desktop environment to a new toolkit. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 01/14/2012 03:39 AM, kanenas@hawaii.rr.com wrote:

you are missing the point: kde4 and gnome3 are ms conspiracies....

Surely you jest... How do you kill Linux? Kill the desktops by eliminating the efficient and elegant desktop environments that "just work" and replace them with 'new improved' versions that are continually in 'development' and are just awkwardly different enough from the last version as to require the user to have to completely 're-learn' the desktop with each successive release. Then you kill off the ability to configure the new desktops to taste (or horribly confuse it) and add annoyances like new file-open dialogs that are too stupid to remember the last directory it fetched a file from or that continually/automatically change .jpg extensions to .jpeg extensions or some other nonsense like that. Desktops are released way, way too soon in the development cycle. This frustrates users, overwhelms developers and gives what were once well loved and well trusted desktop environments a bad name. We all remember the first non-beta "Official Release" of KDE 4.0.4 with opensuse 11.0 in "June of 2008". The haste in Gnome3 is not quite as bad, but close. I can find my way around in Gnome3, but frankly, I hate it compared to Gnome2 for pretty basic reasons. The panel-0 and panel-1 configuration is horrible, gconf-editor is practically useless, changing the greeter screen is next to impossible and if you just want to change the gtk or metacity theme, you have to search in vain for some tool to let you do it. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org