Re: [SLE] suse only great as workstation not as server??

newer
[SLE] How to make .rpm from .tar ?

thompso_m2＠hotmail.com

18 Mar 2000 18 Mar '00

01:28

Marketing isn't necessarily a "bad" thing. Marketing is simply the art of "massaging the demand" in the marketplace. Microshaft has created a "demand" for their louzy OS and Microshaft makes money. The product is only one piece of the puzzle. If people are not "demanding" the product, then the "best" product could fall on its nose. For my graduate Marketing class, I chose to market Linux. I'm convinced that Linux is a great product, but we now need to create a demand for this wonderful product! Just my $.02, Matt

...

From: Michael Hasenstein To: maqish CC: SuSE Linux Mailing List Subject: Re: [SLE] suse only great as workstation not as server?? Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 23:03:40 +0100 (MET) {snip}

than anyone else. Plus, we've got the developers to keep doing that, this is where we spent our money, instead of marketing. Of our 360 people most are developers, most of them important figures in the open source scene.

-- Michael Hasenstein http://www.suse.de/~mha/ Private Pilot (ASEL+aerobatics) since 1998

______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

Show replies by date

mha＠suse.de

18 Mar 18 Mar

02:34

New subject: [SLE] suse only great as workstation not as server??

On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, m thompso wrote:

...

Marketing isn't necessarily a "bad" thing. Marketing is simply the art of "massaging the demand" in the marketplace. Microshaft has created a "demand" for their louzy OS and Microshaft makes money.

The product is only one piece of the puzzle. If people are not "demanding" the product, then the "best" product could fall on its nose.

For my graduate Marketing class, I chose to market Linux. I'm convinced that Linux is a great product, but we now need to create a demand for this wonderful product!

Absolutely correct. BUT: There is not much Linux has to offer to many of the people now using Windows, and there used to be little for people using SOlrais & Co. We did a lot in both fields, and esp. in the server field we've come a long way. Yes, Linux worked as small server before, but without the most essential LVM and a journaling fs there was no way Linux could be used for any big essential server. Well, maybe a few people did anyway, but that wasn't the rule, but an exception. We're talking about a server with 200GB here, not your small 10GB local mailserver, Linux could do the latter already. In the Windows competition area there's a lot left to do with usability, applications, multimedia, all big topics. Forget the current hype. MS just sold the 1 millionth copy of Win2000. They started only a short time ago, and it's for commercial customers, so this is an enourmous figure. Compare that to the total number of Linux's sold last year. Linux' market share is still _tiny_, just because we use it every day doesn't mean the other 6 billion people on earth also do it. We have the attention for Linux right now because of the growth rate, not because of the market share. So, with the very limited resources we have (360 people), we decided to first of all work on the product. Our strategy can't be so wrong, quite the opposite, judging from the comparison of the balance sheets with all the others. We plan to _stay_, rather than only seeing a short term IPO bubble, because we want a good work environment, which we have at SuSE, and that includes a good product and a good service, which lets customers come back. This is why SuSE has to pay less than others to its employees ;-) (but still compatitive, of course), because we've got the advantage of having a great environment here, made for the long run. The plan also includes more marketing, now that we begin to get somewhere with the product (without journaling and LVM you couldn't really use Linux for anything of even only medium size, and the desktop is also getting somewhere now, finally). -- Michael Hasenstein http://www.suse.de/~mha/ Private Pilot (ASEL+aerobatics) since 1998 -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

talacko＠yarn.demon.co.uk

11:56

New subject: [SLE] suse only great as workstation not as server??

On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Michael Hasenstein wrote:

...

Absolutely correct. BUT: There is not much Linux has to offer to many of the people now using Windows, and there used to be little for people using SOlrais & Co. We did a lot in both fields, and esp. in the server field we've come a long way. Yes, Linux worked as small server before, but without the most essential LVM and a journaling fs there was no way Linux could be used for any big essential server. Well, maybe a few people did anyway, but that wasn't the rule, but an exception. We're talking about a server with 200GB here, not your small 10GB local mailserver, Linux could do the latter already. In the Windows competition area there's a lot left to do with usability, applications, multimedia, all big topics.

I can think of a couple of reasons for people to move from Windows to Linux. * Linux is FREE (in the Free Software Foundation sense). This means you have complete control over your system. You can tinker with everything from basic kernel functions to the look of your desktop. It has wonderful scripting languages that allow you to link up apps however you want. Compare this with Windows. If you don't use MS products, you are greatly disadvantaged. Windows ties you in to the way MS wants you to do things * Linux is cheap (or even free in the sense that it is gratis). It is far cheaper to install Linux in an office than Windows. Compare the cost of Windows 2000 + MS Office to Linux + StarOffice. * Linux doesn't eat your work. Emacs never crashes (SO does, but that's commercial software for you). * Linux doesn't require constant hardware upgrades. Most office people write a few letters and need Powerpoint to produce vapid (sorry for that judgement loaded word - couldn't resist) presentations. You could do that on DOS with WP 5.1. Why do you need Windows? Linux + WP/SO looks better than DOS. * For IS people, Linux's privleges system makes sure that users don't delete shared libraries and install programs that crash the system. * For power users Linux is much better. The excellent shells available show that a command line interface can be, and often is, better than a pretty GUI. Serious computer users need something that offers them flexibility. Everytime I start up Windows, I start shouting at the windows explorer. It is one of the most annoying bits of the GUI. I can never find my files. Give me ls, locate and grep anyday. To find stuff, it's better to mount my Windows partitions in Linux and have a look. Against all of the above, Linux doesn't look pretty. For novices, it is difficult, e.g. setting up an internet connection is a hassle (although there have been huge improvements in the last few months). Also, Linux doesn't look like Windows and therefore is unfamiliar. Interesting to see whether any clever developers are trying to copy the Windows interface widget by widget. Interesting to try it with the Mac too. Linux is also missing a few essential apps: a spreadsheet that is as fully featured as Excel, and a vector drawing program. The GIMP also, as far as I know, can't handle CMYK colour separation and Pantone colours, which for a lot of people will make it unusable. On Slashdot a few people were lamenting the lack of good sound apps. However, your average user doesn't need any of these things. However, the biggest thing that Linux has got against it is inertia (especially from the corporate sector). Oh, my lord it's different, we couldn't possibly consider it. Cheers...Paul -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

JerryKreps＠alltel.net

13:46

New subject: [SLE] suse only great as workstation not as server??

Paul Talacko wrote:

...

On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Michael Hasenstein wrote:

...
Absolutely correct. BUT: There is not much Linux has to offer to many of the people now using Windows, and there used to be little for people using

If by 'many' you mean average Joe or Jan User at home, then Linux has a lot to offer and tons of money for them to spend on their retirement portfolio, not Bill Gate's. Joe or Jan User does internet browsing on ESPN or CROSSINGS, email, letter writing, geneology, checkbook accounting (without the stock market options - we're talking average user here), and perhaps some games or sound stuff like playing audio CDs. Some may even scan and edit images and the like. SuSE has these areas covered like a blanket... click and fire. <snip>

...

Against all of the above, Linux doesn't look pretty. For novices, it is difficult, e.g. setting up an internet connection is a hassle (although there have been huge improvements in the last few months). Also, Linux doesn't look like Windows and therefore is unfamiliar. Interesting to see whether any clever developers are trying to copy the Windows interface widget by widget. Interesting to try it with the Mac too.

I would hate to see Linux get locked into a 'me too' attitude when it comes to look and feel. Besides, too much of the screen realestate is being taken up with toolbars and icons. What I think would be neat is to put a gradiant map on the title bar of the 'window' (or frame, or what ever you want to call it) and as you move your mouse along the title bar icons appear on the screen. Clicking the title bar when the desired icon is showing selects that context, which either fires the chosen app or remaps the title bar to the new layer of choices. I hereby transfer this idea (intellectual property) to the GNU Foundation and the GPL. (Prior Art - Netscape tries to recover realestate by hiding toolbars with a left-margin button, but it doesn't work well unless you resize the screen.) Winxxxx's are such moving targets we would be putting ourselves into the same situtation that IBM was in trying to make Win3.1 work transparently with OS/2. One little tweek and Win3.1 - OS/2 compatibility was broken. In a similar vein, the WINE project has put itself into such a bind. It is always in a catchup race trying to become compatible with the latest WinXXXX release, which it will never do. VWare has made that race moot, anyway, at least until M$ tweeks its OS to make compatibility with VWare impossible.

...

Linux is also missing a few essential apps: a spreadsheet that is as fully featured as Excel, and a vector drawing program. The GIMP also, as far as I know, can't handle CMYK colour separation and Pantone colours, which for a lot of people will make it unusable. On Slashdot a few people were lamenting the lack of good sound apps. However, your average user doesn't need any of these things.

I have QCad on my system. It is FREE and is an excellent vector drawing program. Looks like AutoCad 1.0 for Windows. Also, there is Varkon, a VERY powerful professional CAD and modeling app. Also free. Not to mention the commerical stuff. I think that Blender, a complete 3D modeling and animation suite, can also be used as a vector drawing program... yup... just glancing through their excellent manual it seems one can use it in such a way.

...

However, the biggest thing that Linux has got against it is inertia (especially from the corporate sector). Oh, my lord it's different, we couldn't possibly consider it.

Maybe it is not so much inertia as fear. Where I work the IT folks are afraid their NCE's and MSCE's will be useless if a switch is made to Linux, so they argue for MS everytime Linux is mentioned. They are wrong, of course. Their hardware skills will still be needed. Their knowledge of networking is not dependent on the OS, unless they could only change network parameters by clicking buttons on MS or Novell apps. Also, it appears that their MSCE certification will expire very soon now, anyway, as M$ is demanding that all MSCE's recertify in W2K before Jan 1st. If our dept doesn't move to W2K (can you call it an 'upgrade'?) their W2K certification is useless. Aside: At work we've been using the Win95 platform to do my development on. We have made a deliberate decision NOT to move to W2K. A couple of weeks ago it was decided that I needed to burn some transmittal CDs every week, so the IT folks ordered an HP-Writer. When it arrived I discovered I needed to install Win98 to get it to work. That FORCED me to move to Win98. Similar circumstances will FORCE many folks to move to W2K as M$ entices OEMs to make hardware which is compatible ONLY with W2K. JLK -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

dsoper＠clipper.net

19:49

New subject: [SLE] suse only great as workstation not as server??

On 18 Mar 00, at 7:46, Jerry L Kreps wrote:

...

Maybe it is not so much inertia as fear. Where I work the IT folks are afraid their NCE's and MSCE's will be useless if a switch is made to Linux, so they argue for MS everytime Linux is mentioned. They are wrong, of course. Their hardware skills will still be needed. Their knowledge of networking is not dependent on the OS, unless they could only change network parameters by clicking buttons on MS or Novell apps. Also, it appears that their MSCE certification will expire very soon now, anyway, as M$ is demanding that all MSCE's recertify in W2K before Jan 1st. If our dept doesn't move to W2K (can you call it an 'upgrade'?) their W2K certification is useless.

Luckily, I work in a university environment, where there is lots of *nix, and (ugh!) Open VMS. I've gotten rid of our NT web server and replaced it with Linux and am setting up several departmental Samba print servers. My boss was originally somewhat hesistant about this, being that all our workstations are Win 9x/NT (also, 2 Netware servers), and also due to the perceived lack of people to administer Linux. Some of the hesistancy is probably also due to the fact that even though I could happily retire there, I'm in Cisco school and I won't be there forever, strictly due to the money factor. But when I told her that if I left, I knew a bunch of folx that would jump at the chance to have a job doing Linux admin work, and explained to her that the high quality of theoretical knowledge that Linux folx tend to have makes them able to better administer any type of network, she started to listen. Perhaps this had to do some with the fact that the money my department has spent to outsource problems I couldn't fix has shrunk from $5K yearly to less than $100, and this is all for printer repairs. Yup, that theoretical knowledge gained through using Linux definitely has a concrete financial reward for everyone involved.... Cheers, Dennis "Custard pies are a sort of esperanto: a universal language." --Noel Godin -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

stanassc＠eclipse.net

18:45

New subject: [SLE] suse only great as workstation not as server??

On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Paul Talacko wrote: Have no MicroShaft products anywhere in the house.

...

On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Michael Hasenstein wrote:

Linux is also missing a few essential apps: a spreadsheet that is as fully featured as Excel, and a vector drawing program.

AND a US Tax Preparation Program, AND a user friendly GIS system, (Yes, I have copies of Grass)

...

However, the biggest thing that Linux has got against it is inertia (especially from the corporate sector). Oh, my lord it's different, we couldn't possibly consider it.

Cheers...Paul

Bob Stanfield B-N-T Groundwater Management Committee 29 Ledge Lane Pipersville, PA 18947 Voice 610-294-9884 FAX 610-294-8119 -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

JerryKreps＠alltel.net

19:15

New subject: [SLE] suse only great as workstation not as server??

Bob Stanfield wrote:

...

On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Paul Talacko wrote:

Have no MicroShaft products anywhere in the house.

...
On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Michael Hasenstein wrote:

Linux is also missing a few essential apps: a spreadsheet that is as fully featured as Excel, and a vector drawing program.

I noticed that Corel is releasing Office 2000 on April 1st (Hopefully no pun intended)

...

AND a US Tax Preparation Program,

That will be one app that will succumb to the Web app syndrome... Why pay for an app you use only once a year? Online e-filers will supply OS indpendent web sites for the opportunity to bill for electronic filing fees.

...

AND a user friendly GIS system, (Yes, I have copies of Grass)

Really now, how many Joe Users will need a GIS system? Ten? ;-)

...

...
However, the biggest thing that Linux has got against it is inertia (especially from the corporate sector). Oh, my lord it's different, we couldn't possibly consider it.

Cheers...Paul

Bob Stanfield B-N-T Groundwater Management Committee 29 Ledge Lane Pipersville, PA 18947 Voice 610-294-9884 FAX 610-294-8119

-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

juergen.braukmann＠ruhr-west.de

20:41

New subject: [SLE] suse only great as workstation not as server??

Bob Stanfield wrote:

...

On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Paul Talacko wrote:

Have no MicroShaft products anywhere in the house.

nor have I, but: WHO the heck are they?? ;-)

...

...
On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Michael Hasenstein wrote:

Linux is also missing a few essential apps: a spreadsheet that is as fully featured as Excel, and a vector drawing program.

AND a US Tax Preparation Program,

AND a user friendly GIS system, (Yes, I have copies of Grass)

OK. Let's put some mild pressure onto ESRI. ;-)) J. -- =========================================== __ _ Juergen Braukmann juergen.braukmann@gmx.de| -o)/ / (_)__ __ ____ __ Tel: 0201-743648 dk4jb@db0qs.#nrw.deu.eu | /\\ /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / ===========================================_\_v __/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

8812

Age (days ago)

8812

Last active (days ago)

List overview

Download

7 comments

7 participants

participants (7)

dsoper＠clipper.net
JerryKreps＠alltel.net
juergen.braukmann＠ruhr-west.de
mha＠suse.de
stanassc＠eclipse.net
talacko＠yarn.demon.co.uk
thompso_m2＠hotmail.com