On 02/18/2014 11:37 AM, Ted Byers wrote:

On 14-02-18 11:07 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

A couple of days ago there was mention of "~/.thumbnails" and I mentioned that it was one folder that there was no need to back up as it would be recreated.

No doubt there are other folders like that, caches and indexes, and it set me thinking. What else do we not need to back up?

Whether backing up to a DVD or to a 'cloud' service (using rsync perhaps), reducing the volume is a positive.

Some of the volume can be cleaned up with tools like Bleachbit, removing known caches, backup files and more.

But what about index files? Thunderbird, for example, leaves a lot of index and other files lying about. Which of those can be cleaned up? Bleachbit says it can deal with the index files, but what else is there?

There is also a lot of "~/.<something> which might also be or might have candidates.

What do you think/know of?

I have no idea, so I can't answer that question.

But, I am as interested in the answer to your question as I am in a closely related question, which is, "What must be backed up?" One should, if one is thorough, end up with everything in the system being in the one list or the other, and that would tell us what is the easiest to set up in a backup script that is intended to automate the process. It is somewhat like a security policy question: 'whatever is not explicitly permitted is forbidden' vs 'whatever is not explicitly forbidden is permitted'. The two often have very different consequences, both for security and cost of implementation. So, if I am to automate backups, do I construct a list of what must be backed up, or do I backup everything except for what is on an exclusion list?

I'm taking a 'whatever is not explicitly forbidden is permitted' approach to backup, so I'm trying to determine what is no needed, what is 'dynamic' and will be reconstructed. The index files and thumbnails come into that category. As was pointed out, if you try deleting the thumbnails while Dolphin/Konqueror is active they will be reconstructed as you go along. The other thing is 'scope'. Backing up the system and backing up a user are two different cases. A lot of the system can be recovered from the DVD or the repositories. Anything that is or could be a tmpFS shouldn't be backed up. That pretty much leaves /etc and some things under /var, assuming you haven't done the customizations elsewhere such as /usr/share.

From my perspective, when I get to design my backup strategy, I want to know what is the least costly strategy that will a) enable me to restore a failed system to it's state prior to the failure, and b) provide absolute protection for (potentially very costly) data (in some cases, data that is both expensive to collect, and represents significant legal liabilities if lost - and of course, must be kept confidential).

"Least Costly" is why I'm asking this. Backing up to cloud eats my monthly allotment of bandwidth. Last month I got a warning about that. Rsync is very good but it does have to ask what is at the other end. That eventually adds up. Buying another 1T drive is cheaper, but I'm going to run out of SATA ports on my motherboard :-) I like the idea of backing up to DVD. Right now, after 'pruning' what I know about, ".thumbnails" and some caches, the non NFS mounted part of ~anton/ fits on a DVD. Just. That won't last for long. I've configures, as I've mentioned, many of the subdirectories -- ~/Documents, ~/Music, and more -- into 5G partitions, looking forward to doing partition by partition backup when they are full enough to justify it. But right now they aren't that full. No doubt there is software ... "backuponcd" might be a candidate. I wonder if its even worth buying CDs rather then DVDs?

But you also talk of cleaning up parts of the file system, which seems to be the antithesis of a backup, or perhaps complementary(?). That would suggest that an automated script that backs up parts of the file system perhaps ought to have a section that cleans up those parts that are not backed up; becoming more system maintenance rather than just backup, and that raises another question as to what tool should be used, the behaviour of which is to be governed by what set of rules.

Take a look at 'bleachbit'. Also take look at 'fslint' which can identify duplicates, dead symlinks and more. All this can reduce the volume of what has to be backed up.

Is there a website that provides easy access to whatever collected wisdom has been accumulated on these questions?

Perhaps. My google-fu hasn't uncovered it. So far the best is "Bleedin obvious, ain't it?" http://www.rackspace.com/knowledge_center/article/best-practices-for-cloud-b... See "Choosing What to Backup" -- What is character but the determination of incident what is incident but the illustration of character? - Henry James -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 19/02/2014 02:04, Patrick Shanahan a écrit :

* Anton Aylward [02-18-14 19:20]:

...

I wonder if its even worth buying CDs rather then DVDs?

If you have lowered media requirements that much, why not get a couple of hand-fulls of smaller flash drives? Reusable, long life, cheap and probably more dependable.

you are lucky if you have a sufficently smalll data to fit on a cd/dvd. MPine du not even on Blu-Ray! and there are no more optical media able to compete with hard disk. It's a shame because I liked to be able to make a lot of backups and one can't inadvertently erase a dvd... I have 4Go archives and as I do HD video, often a shot is 100Go large some thought about backup (sorry, in french) http://dodin.info/wiki/index.php?n=Doc.PrincipeDesSauvegardes and some rsync syntax: http://dodin.info/wiki/index.php?n=Doc.Sauvegarde-complete jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/18/2014 08:04 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...

I wonder if its even worth buying CDs rather then DVDs? If you have lowered media requirements that much, why not get a couple of hand-fulls of smaller flash drives? Reusable, long life, cheap and probably more dependable.

At least k3b knows where to write to! Every time I stick in a new multi-G USB drive it mounts under /var/run/media/anton/<something> and the something is presumably the disk-ID This is a bit awkward for my rsync scripts. Yes I know about labels. I don't want all my USB sticks to have the same label. A label that indicated the date of the backup would be nice :-) -- Nature Nature is not kind; It treats all things impartially. The Sage is not kind, And treats all people impartially. Nature is like a bellows, Empty, yet never ceasing its supply. The more it moves, the more it yields; So the sage draws upon experience And cannot be exhausted. -- Lao Tse, "Tao Te Ching" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 19/02/14 00:17, Anton Aylward wrote:

"Least Costly" is why I'm asking this. Backing up to cloud eats my monthly allotment of bandwidth. Last month I got a warning about that.

Take a look at Tarsnap http://www.tarsnap.com/. It's both bandwidth efficient and cost effective. - ---Quote--- Tarsnap works on a prepaid model based on actual usage. Storage: 300 picodollars / byte-month ($0.30 / GB-month) Bandwidth: 300 picodollars / byte ($0.30 / GB) These prices are based on the actual number of bytes stored and the actual number of bytes of bandwidth used ? after compression and data deduplication. This makes Tarsnap ideal for daily backups ? many users have hundreds of archives adding up to several terabytes, but pay less than $10/month. [How?] Tarsnap has no fixed or minimum monthly fees! Tarsnap is billed only based on actual usage ? if you only store a small amount of data, a $5 payment might last you for years. - ---EndQuote--- I'm a happy user who has no other connection with tarsnap. Bob - -- Bob Williams System: Linux 3.11.10-7-desktop Distro: openSUSE 13.1 (x86_64) with KDE Development Platform: 4.12.2 Uptime: 06:00am up 6 days 14:00, 6 users, load average: 0.38, 0.26, 0.18 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEUEARECAAYFAlMEjdoACgkQ0Sr7eZJrmU47uACWIJEZP2y3U3QUXNR7xjVfdktX awCeOcuLFlT+ymc9S0HuLOgthuae/sQ= =ALVB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 19/02/14 01:17, Anton Aylward wrote:

I like the idea of backing up to DVD. Right now, after 'pruning' what I know about, ".thumbnails" and some caches, the non NFS mounted part of ~anton/ fits on a DVD. Just. That won't last for long.

I've configures, as I've mentioned, many of the subdirectories -- ~/Documents, ~/Music, and more -- into 5G partitions, looking forward to doing partition by partition backup when they are full enough to justify it. But right now they aren't that full.

No doubt there is software ... "backuponcd" might be a candidate.

I wonder if its even worth buying CDs rather then DVDs?

Having done my backups to CD/DVD-RW for many years, and now being on the brink of changing my plan, I'd have to advise against optical media as a primary backup. Simply because of the amount of faff involved. For less than 25GB of total backups spread across not more than 6 or 7 discs, it's perhaps feasible. But even if you create well defined divisions of data and save files of data selections, data naturally evolves and expands and you have to constantly reassess how your data is split between the discs you use. Doing these kinds of backups on a frequent basis is just too tedious. I guess if you were using double-sided media with 8-9GB capacity per disc, it lightens the process a little. But I've finally come around to starting afresh with a different backup regime, something I've been putting off for too long in wanting to profit from the discs I already have and not wanting to outlay more cash unnecessarily on flash media, cloud storage or other alternatives. I invested in an SSD for my laptop and shall hence make use of the old HDD, whilst copying some data across to a couple of other old machines I still use. From hereon I intend to simply sync my most important data to the externally-attached HD at roughly weekly intervals. A few bits and bobs I'll bung in the minimal free cloud storage I have or on my other machines, and then the optical discs shall be wheeled out two or three times a year just for the most critical data, then returned to an off-site location. I reckon I can save myself a few hours a month of faffing this way. IMHO, optical media was the right solution for typical quantities of data average users had knocking about in the 2000's. Consider how 3.5in floppies were becoming far too cumbersome and low-capacity ten years ago, and that's where CDs/DVDs are at now. It's not just the capacity issue, it's the convoluted process of writing a disc image meaning you can't simply copy the files in their natural state. (Some solutions exist to do this but they often lock you into using one particular product). Given the tumbling price of HDDs, SSDs, flash drives and so on, grabbing hold of two devices, making quick wholesale backup dumps to one on-site disk and less frequently to another off-site disk is just a lot less bother, and provides a good minimum coverage. All that said, if you plan your data arrangement well enough and can find a tool that does incremental backups to optical media, you could in theory create a modular backup system whereby only one or two discs need updating at a time. Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-02-19 15:20, jdd wrote:

think about so called "usb docks". Some are even esata capables and makes it very easy to add disks. I even used one of them recently to build my system ssd disk, as it's exactly seen as ian internal disk (esata is only a wire, in fact identical to internal sata)

Or one of these:

http://www.alternate.es/html/product/listing.html?navId=1016&tk=7&lk=6590

But

the problem any of these things have, is that the disks connectors eventually break. Or so I've been told. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlMFUrcACgkQja8UbcUWM1zVOAEAlC/T43edGKZlDptkl5E/cy+Z iDM0kFXbUv6KBCPEOQYA/3wKvsB6cHDhwhBRkEXGxhQSEoD2xDCM/VNtcep2uJmk =R4q3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-02-20 08:32, jdd wrote:

Le 20/02/2014 01:56, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

But

...

the problem any of these things have, is that the disks connectors eventually break. Or so I've been told.

in the two I have, never has this problem.

Me neither. But since I read some people saying it, I'm extra careful when inserting them

I do not plug/unplug as hotswap, not knowing if this could be harmless (there is a switch on the dock, so not necessary to stop the computer), and I do not do this very often,

I do hotplug them, on the dock, with the switch off. After insertion, I power the thing up. No problems. Well, yes, one: My desktop has several SATA sockets. Two of them are different and do not recognize disks connected after initial power up. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlMF8psACgkQja8UbcUWM1zZLwD/QJgf+cVTuktXPtQSFam7GRtV zCO1nkVxvJ+kDkNk9uAA/AtTBS7Xg/1Phbfkvr2FcMKcyYLFeK1rn8WYA9ItLmdp =OuWM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-02-20 13:29, jdd wrote:

Le 20/02/2014 13:18, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

I do hotplug them, on the dock, with the switch off. After insertion, I power the thing up. No problems.

this is not hotplug, if the switch is off :-)

hotplug is all things running, like some SCSI professional systems - usually hardware RAID.

I call it hotplug if the computer is not powered down, and the disk can be mounted without rebot. Thus, connecting an external usb flash stick is hotplugging it. Connecting and external hard disk, via esata or usb, and connecting its power source later, is also hotplug. In two steps, yes, one data, one power. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlMF/rkACgkQja8UbcUWM1wGLgEAlWYYz3SFGnnICtGIEL3ZUR39 8qxeXiB4KD02mvMRrMgBAIHGSI8j2Xy7ZGWkLJJo48L5ipukDrdTHxEhksFgz5jK =4amP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

jdd wrote:

Le 20/02/2014 14:10, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

I call it hotplug if the computer is not powered down, and the disk can be mounted without rebot. Thus, connecting an external usb flash stick is hotplugging it. Connecting and external hard disk, via esata or usb, and connecting its power source later, is also hotplug. In two steps, yes, one data, one power.

when using usb<>sata, I always unplug usb before sata, sata is not hotplug by default, some are, not all

Jdd, Are you saying there are sata spec. compliant devices / cables that are not hotplug capable? Or are you saying, not all devices/cables are spec compliant?

jdd

Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-02-21 14:04, Greg Freemyer wrote:

Are you saying there are sata spec. compliant devices / cables that are not hotplug capable?

Yep. My desktop has two such things. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlMHW6EACgkQja8UbcUWM1zY4gD+IOyj2Zrwsby6ctDW7+XladZ5 XQ0ikQAo8HskdThhuPoA/0dnZ2mknfx/LqZF4e6yM74bxlb2PvU9VW/aYIHuoYl1 =V2xk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-02-20 22:37, David T-G wrote:

Carlos --

...and then Carlos E. R. said... % ... % Well, yes, one: My desktop has several SATA sockets. Two of them are % different and do not recognize disks connected after initial power up.

Does it have no problem with the same disks if they're present when the system is powered up

No problem at all.

And are they large disks?

No, all are 500 GB, except one that is 1TB. I have tested 2 TB disks, no problem - except that of course, I can't boot from a 2 TiB disk or larger: not a UEFI board.

I found out the hard way that my two mobo ports were large-disk happy but the four add-on ports can't recognize anything over 2T. I don't know how large my mobo ports can go, but even if I bump to 6T or 8T drives I can't roll these 4T drives to the daughter card. Oh, well :-|

Sigh... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlMGg3IACgkQja8UbcUWM1ySNwD/d2merbKDCE9ikR01TVCwkSwq U2/2yVEa+0NxAeB8bfYA/3y2h6pl6hDj2rtYCfZIRmz1ywBNmG8owriDIw35z5Ge =mN9I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix, et al -- ...and then Felix Miata said... % % On 2014-02-20 16:37 (GMT-0500) David T-G composed: % % >I found out the hard way that my two mobo ports were large-disk happy but % >the four add-on ports can't recognize anything over 2T. % % What exactly do you mean? As long as the kernel finds them, that's all that % should be necessary if all they are are data devices. It's been a while since I poked at it, so I don't have details :-) But, if memory serves, no matter what I did I couldn't see more than 2T of the drives on the daughtercard. % % >I don't know how % >large my mobo ports can go, but even if I bump to 6T or 8T drives I can't % >roll these 4T drives to the daughter card. Oh, well :-| % % Maybe all you need is more daughtercard sophistication. The marketplace has [snip] True :-) but I'm also horribly cheap. However, if I ever cough up the money for more drives, or are perhaps given another birthday present again like these two were, then I'll probably both do detailed testing and dig into pricing for a better unit :-) Thanks & HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt

Felix -- ...and then Felix Miata said... % % On 2014-02-20 21:07 (GMT-0500) David T-G composed: % ... % >It's been a while since I poked at it, so I don't have details :-) But, % >if memory serves, no matter what I did I couldn't see more than 2T of the % >drives on the daughtercard. % % Using Linux, or WinXP? Heavens, Linux! No way I'd put Windows back on that box after setting it free ;-) I tried both the Knoppix Casper-enabled image I'd been using for a while and my new SuSEStudio build, though, both with no luck. Only after I tore it down and moved the old primary drives to the daughtercard so that I could put the new ones on the mobo could I see the whole 4T on each. HANN :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt

Felix -- ...and then Felix Miata said... % % What is output of lspci and/or gfxinfo for that "daughtercard"? As I have % several similar devices strewn through multiple machines, this may be good % reason for me not to invest in >2TB devices a while longer. This is a stupid Silicon Image controller: root@diskfarm:~# lspci 00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 82945G/GZ/P/PL Memory Controller Hub (rev 02) 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82945G/GZ Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 02) 00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family High Definition Audio Controller (rev 01) 00:1c.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family PCI Express Port 1 (rev 01) 00:1c.1 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family PCI Express Port 2 (rev 01) 00:1d.0 USB Controller: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family USB UHCI Controller #1 (rev 01) 00:1d.1 USB Controller: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family USB UHCI Controller #2 (rev 01) 00:1d.2 USB Controller: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family USB UHCI Controller #3 (rev 01) 00:1d.3 USB Controller: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family USB UHCI Controller #4 (rev 01) 00:1d.7 USB Controller: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family USB2 EHCI Controller (rev 01) 00:1e.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801 PCI Bridge (rev e1) 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801GB/GR (ICH7 Family) LPC Interface Bridge (rev 01) 00:1f.1 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82801G (ICH7 Family) IDE Controller (rev 01) 00:1f.2 IDE interface: Intel Corporation N10/ICH7 Family SATA IDE Controller (rev 01) 00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family SMBus Controller (rev 01) 01:04.0 RAID bus controller: Silicon Image, Inc. SiI 3114 [SATALink/SATARaid] Serial ATA Controller (rev 02) 01:05.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): VIA Technologies, Inc. VT6306/7/8 [Fire II(M)] IEEE 1394 OHCI Controller (rev 43) 02:00.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8101E/RTL8102E PCI Express Fast Ethernet controller (rev 01) I had problems with it under Windows, too, IIRC; I think its RAID stank. On the other hand, if anyone wants to give me a couple of >4T drives, I'll happily invest some testing time ;-) HTH & HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt

Malcolm, et al -- ...and then Malcolm said... % % On Thu 20 Feb 2014 11:26:42 PM CST, David T-G wrote: % % >This is a stupid Silicon Image controller: % % > 01:04.0 RAID bus controller: Silicon Image, Inc. SiI 3114 % > [SATALink/SATARaid] Serial ATA Controller (rev 02) ... % Hi % I use one of those and there only SATA I (1.5Gbps) so do the drives % your using support that? [snip] Good question, and I'm not sure. They're each a ST4000DM000-1F21 from Seagate. I haven't done any poking. Since I could quite happily see up to 2T and write a filesystem and so on, however, my guess is that the drives don't care about the speed. And the card happily drives the 2ea 500G + 2ea 330G drives (the next two largest sizes I have; 4T is so exciting! :-) that I have hanging on there now. [No, for those of you keeping score at home, I still haven't gotten around to learning enough about LVM to pull all of this together; the two 4T drives are running xfs and reiserfs filesystems with the same content (and, interestingly after the discussion, reiser seems both faster and more stable) while the other drives are just chunks of scratch space. Ah, for a few more hours in the day!] HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2014-02-20 16:37 (GMT-0500) David T-G composed:

...

I found out the hard way that my two mobo ports were large-disk happy but the four add-on ports can't recognize anything over 2T.

What exactly do you mean? As long as the kernel finds them, that's all that should be necessary if all they are are data devices.

Right. I've only just yesterday attached a couple of 4Tb drives to a system - the BIOS only sees 2Tb, but in Linx the drives are working fine at full capacity. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.1°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 21/02/2014 12:59, David T-G a écrit :

maybe a database, but if parted couldn't get there I can't imagine anything else would, either.

parted is not bulletproof. Did you try yast? just in case there could be some patch around jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/21/2014 01:08 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Wait. Parted can not initialize a disk bigger than 2 TiB (not 2 TB) using traditional partitions, on MBR. You have to use GPT for those.

BTW: fdisk from util-linux has changed very much in the last 2 years. Here's an example to partition a 8T disk (file) as GPT: $ truncate -s 8T /tmp/x $ printf "%s\n" g n 1 '' '+6T' n 2 '' '' t 2 15 p w | ./fdisk /tmp/x Welcome to fdisk (util-linux 2.24.181-081dc). Changes will remain in memory only, until you decide to write them. Be careful before using the write command. Device does not contain a recognized partition table. The size of this disk is 8 TiB (8796093022208 bytes). DOS partition table format can not be used on drives for volumes larger than 2199023255040 bytes for 512-byte sectors. Use GUID partition table format (GPT). Created a new DOS disklabel with disk identifier 0xe085f3ac. Command (m for help): Created a new GPT disklabel (GUID: 6829853A-E2FE-44C9-83A0-C028980A47D1). Command (m for help): Partition number (1-128, default 1): First sector (2048-17179869150, default 2048): Last sector, +sectors or +size{K,M,G,T,P} (2048-17179869150, default 17179869150): Created a new partition 1 of type 'Linux filesystem' and of size 6 TiB. Command (m for help): Partition number (2-128, default 2): First sector (12884903936-17179869150, default 12884903936): Last sector, +sectors or +size{K,M,G,T,P} (12884903936-17179869150, default 17179869150): Created a new partition 2 of type 'Linux filesystem' and of size 2 TiB. Command (m for help): Partition number (1,2, default 2): Partition type (type L to list all types): Changed type of partition 'Linux filesystem' to 'Linux swap'. Command (m for help): Disk /tmp/x: 8 TiB, 8796093022208 bytes, 17179869184 sectors Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes Disklabel type: gpt Disk identifier: 6829853A-E2FE-44C9-83A0-C028980A47D1 Device Start End Size Type /tmp/x1 2048 12884903935 6T Linux filesystem /tmp/x2 12884903936 17179869150 2T Linux swap Command (m for help): The partition table has been altered. Syncing disks. Just use a newer fdisk ;-) Have fun, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-02-21 14:09, Per Jessen wrote:

Thanks Berny, it never occurred to me that fdisk would have been improved. I much prefer fdisk over parted.

Oh, yes. IIRC, it was one of those openSUSE/Novell sponsored summer projects. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlMHWqoACgkQja8UbcUWM1zOgwD/R6Gp1OjTZ0euz0OFFN8q5aV3 SAju0yy7bpUAIj7nW80A/AnHuA5Vw+UvEUDbiCIVq4j7vt15N+BE0pmGADkioRzY =YvOE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Bernhard Voelker wrote:

On 02/21/2014 02:54 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-02-21 14:09, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Thanks Berny, it never occurred to me that fdisk would have been improved. I much prefer fdisk over parted.

Oh, yes. IIRC, it was one of those openSUSE/Novell sponsored summer projects.

I can't confirm the sponsorship, but at least it was a summer: ;-) The first bigger upstream commit was in Sep 2012: http://git.kernel.org/cgit/utils/util-linux/util-linux.git/commit/?id=766d51...

... and lots of re-factoring took place in the month before. It now shared code with the other partitioning manipulating tools in util-linux.

Per the openSUSE GSoC 2012 September wrap up https://news.opensuse.org/2012/09/28/report-successful-opensuse-gsoc/ == Redesign fdisk to be more extensible and implement GPT support, by Davidlohr Bueso Davidlohr worked upstream on refactoring and modernising fdisk. He managed to clean up and modularize a lot of complicated fdisk code, which will make it easier in the future to support more disklabels and add more functionality, as well as creating planned libfdisk library. Davidlohr also submitted a patch which implements basic support for the GPT disk label. == So openSUSE provided a mentor, and a student to do the work. Google provided the money to fund the student. It looks like that effort has led to fruition and opensuse should get a thank you from all of us that want/need GPT support in fdisk. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 10:11 AM, jdd wrote:

Le 21/02/2014 16:06, Greg Freemyer a écrit :

...

creating planned libfdisk library. Davidlohr also submitted a patch which implements basic support for the GPT disk label.

"basic"

how much basic?

thanks (and good works!) jdd

That was 18-months ago. Berny is saying that people (possibly including David Lohr) built on that work and now fdisk has full GPT support. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-02-21 16:06, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Bernhard Voelker <> wrote:

...

On 02/21/2014 02:54 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

So openSUSE provided a mentor, and a student to do the work. Google provided the money to fund the student.

Oops! I had forgotten the Google part on it. Also important.

It looks like that effort has led to fruition and opensuse should get a thank you from all of us that want/need GPT support in fdisk.

Yes :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlMHieoACgkQja8UbcUWM1xuxwD/Y0HC5ov8odPq+g3b66mmbuzC c9+9jaN+b96GqVBPLygBAJg7wG9KC3VmpeZpIrSkem6uEWG6tQFbSKi8zkwp/xvL =cfe0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/21/2014 02:34 PM, jdd wrote:

Le 21/02/2014 13:44, Bernhard Voelker a écrit :

...

BTW: fdisk from util-linux has changed very much in the last 2 years. Here's an example to partition a 8T disk (file) as GPT:

for large gpt disk, use gdisk, not fdisk

Why? The fdisk version in my example was from upstream Git. This is part of the man page: $ man ./fdisk.8 | grep 'fdisk is a .* GPT' fdisk is a dialog-driven program for creation and manipulation of partition tables. \ It understands GPT, MBR, Sun, SGI and BSD partition tables. And I wouldn't know of any discussions about restrictions in the upstream mailing list. Admittedly, fdisk in os13.1 is still in version 2.23.2, yet it seems to have already most of the functionality included. Have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/21/2014 03:01 PM, jdd wrote:

fdisk does not understand GUID partition tables (GPTs)

That's what I said. fdisk didn't fully support GPT in version <= v2.23, but v2.24 - which is already in factory - does. See http://git.kernel.org/cgit/utils/util-linux/util-linux.git/tree/Documentatio... ;-) Have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-02-21 15:01, jdd wrote:

Le 21/02/2014 14:54, Bernhard Voelker a écrit :

...

On 02/21/2014 02:34 PM, jdd wrote:

...

...

for large gpt disk, use gdisk, not fdisk

Why?

from man page:

- From the program: minas-tirith:~ # fdisk /dev/sda Welcome to fdisk (util-linux 2.23.2). ... Command (m for help): m Command action a toggle a bootable flag b edit bsd disklabel c toggle the dos compatibility flag d delete a partition g create a new empty GPT partition table <=== - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlMHiusACgkQja8UbcUWM1yA/QD9HxFBUs23mexIDqnUnYOpSxEE qG2d3OZetrpIc81siGoA/je6e8hTs/Cbw9vo5w6A1sPSiD+H6V1qUknVRMyUjPVP =NGuc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-02-20 20:25 (GMT-0500) Felix Miata composed:

On 2014-02-20 16:37 (GMT-0500) David T-G composed:

...

I found out the hard way that my two mobo ports were large-disk happy but the four add-on ports can't recognize anything over 2T.

What exactly do you mean? As long as the kernel finds them, that's all that should be necessary if all they are are data devices.

Not sure what happened here, probably because I wrote this as a mental break from solving a long-running and frustrating problem. I was thinking >2^32 when reading David's post, but it somehow came out kernel. This isn't about the daughtercard host adapter the HD is connected to. Trying to access a HD with >2^32 512 byte logical sectors with any tool that is limited to 2^32 sectors doesn't work. You can't use fdisk or other old partitioning tools on a 4TB HD, because old tools only know about MBR partition tables. You need gfdisk or gptfdisk or any of the other newer tools that can manipulate a required GPT table for disks >2TiB. To boot from a GPT table HD requires PC firmware that understands GPT. Lacking that, a 4TB HD will have to do duty as a non-bootable device. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

jdd wrote:

Le 20/02/2014 01:56, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2014-02-19 15:20, jdd wrote:

...

...

...

http://www.alternate.es/html/product/listing.html?navId=1016&tk=7&lk=6590

But

...

the problem any of these things have, is that the disks connectors eventually break. Or so I've been told.

in the two I have, never has this problem. I do not plug/unplug as hotswap, not knowing if this could be harmless (there is a switch on the dock, so not necessary to stop the computer), and I do not do this very often,

The term of art is hotplug. Sata is hotplugable, read < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA#Power_connectors> Look at the table to the right which shows which power pins connect first. The order of connection is handled by the manufacturer by simply adjusting the length of the various pins. Hotswap is a system feature that requires hardware and software (firmware) support. A lot of raid controllers are hotswap. Thus you can walk up to running system and just pull out a drive without prepping the system in any way. When you plug in a new drive, a rebuild automatically starts. No keyboard/mouse interaction at all. I treat usb as warm swap. That is I always do a manual unmount before I pull out the hotplug connector. Lots of people treat usb drives as hotswap, but I've lost data that way, so in my world usb drives are warm swap devices. Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 19/02/14 15:20, jdd wrote:

Le 19/02/2014 14:13, Peter a écrit :

...

But I've finally come around to starting afresh with a different backup

think about so called "usb docks". Some are even esata capables and makes it very easy to add disks. I even used one of them recently to build my system ssd disk, as it's exactly seen as ian internal disk (esata is only a wire, in fact identical to internal sata)

http://www.abix.fr/docking-station-mixte-sata-ide-usb-esata-lecteur-de-carte-738149.html?LGWCODE=738149;58009;3409&utm_source=google_shopping&utm_term=Racks%20amovibles&utm_medium=comparateur&utm_campaign=generique

notice I give the link for the image, but there it's ridiculously expensive, I have the exact same one bough for only 25€ 2 years ago

In my own case I have a laptop and docking station each containing a modular bay with SATA connection. I can swap out the optical drive and stick in a SATA hard drive caddy for my old disk, then decide which to carry with me when I take the laptop somewhere. I never even knew this when I bought the system, but it's turned out to be a very nifty thing to have, and it keeps my USB ports free. Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

I've been using rsnapshot and removal SATA disks for quite a while, and it works fine. We keep one drive at home, and one in the vault at the bank, in case a tornado/earthquake/zombie apocalypse happens our way. We swap the drives out fairly regularly so if worse comes to worse, we'd only lose some recent data. In between backups, I spin down the drives with this: HD=`/usr/bin/sg_map | /bin/grep sdc | /bin/awk '{print $1}'` /sbin/sdparm -C stop $HD (oS 12.2) My current exclude list is as follows, based on a lot of forum post reading and Googling: #exclude - /proc/* - /tmp/* - /backup/* - /dev/* - /sys/* - /mnt/* - lost+found/ - /.journal - /.fsck - /var/lib/named/proc/* - /var/lib/ntp/proc/* - /var/run/* - /var/tmp/* - /var/spool/* - /var/cache/* - /var/lock/* - /run/* and I run rsnapshot with the following arguments: rsync_short_args -rlptgDEvHhXAo rsync_long_args --delete --numeric-ids --relative --delete-excluded -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/19/2014 06:04 PM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

Almost all worthwhile to backup-up is in /home and /srv (for imap,http,mysql,ldap,nfs,smb)

The base of my rsync backup-to-Dreamhost script is /home/anton. Which is why I'm interested in not sending things that will be re-constructed after a restore anyway, such as cache files, thumbnails and such. -- Those who wish to seek out the cause of miracles, and to understand the things of nature as philosophers, and not to stare at them in astonishment like fools, are soon considered heretical and impious,and proclaimed as such by those whom the mob adores as the interpreters of nature and the gods. For these men know that once ignorance is put aside that wonderment would be taken away which is the only means by which their authority is preserved. --Spinoza -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Per, On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 08:06 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

And with regards to media, when disaster strikes, be certain that your backup is not destroyed/taken away along with your computer....

Christopher did mention that he had two geographically separate copies, very commendable. My backup-server is in a another building, separated by 2 metre of concrete wall.

...

No cd/dvd/BR can stand high temperatures, and most vaults are only protection against theft, not fire.

Most residential Swiss "vaults" will withstand quite a bit. :-)

My impression is that Christopher is the 0,0001% case that takes the right approach. I've been doing some work for an assurance intermediate, so i heard some of the greasy detail people come up with.And these were only the ones being reported to an insurance company. A) most people don't make back-ups B) those who do, do not do it frequently enough C) they seldom try to restore before disaster strikes D) When needed, they are unavailable (also taken away) E) When available, they are unreadable F) When readable, data is either outdated, or not included. Vaults used may people at home, or small companies are even hardly capable of protecting paper documents against fire. Optical- and magnetic media does not stand a chance. swiss-bank-vaults are certainly secure enough, but i'll guess you have a fairly large company for going daily to your bank for dropping your backups :-) Even though backup's importance is in every sysadmin course/book, few people follow their advice. I presume they depend on the NSA for doing their backup. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/20/2014 02:53 AM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

I've been doing some work for an assurance intermediate, so i heard some of the greasy detail people come up with.And these were only the ones being reported to an insurance company.

A) most people don't make back-ups B) those who do, do not do it frequently enough C) they seldom try to restore before disaster strikes D) When needed, they are unavailable (also taken away) E) When available, they are unreadable F) When readable, data is either outdated, or not included.

Do not forget: the sole purpose of doing backups is not to check the item off the list for the auditor. The SOLE purpose of doing a backup is to be able to do a restore. If you can't do a restore, _prove_ you can do a restore, from your backups, then wheat's the point? Oh, it gets worse! Relevant anecdote follows I was doing some network consulting at a firm that does 'surveys', customer satisfaction, product testing and the like. It was a UNIX ship in the days before Linux: SUN, Sequent and other hardware. The new IT manager installed a 'carousel' to do backups. His policy was to take full image backups. Local copies and off site. His policy off 'full image' was to make for fastest possible restore. I thought was was a bad idea, but that was before "Ice age: Dawn of the Dinosaurs": Manny: Sid, whatever you're doing, it's a bad idea. I told him it was a bad idea. I had a bad feeling but couldn't put it into words. As I left he hired a new sysadmin. The guy gave me an uncomfortable feeling. Sure enough, a couple of years later that sysadmin called me asking for a reference. I called the IT manager and asked what had happened. Part of the service the company offered was showing 'improvement', that is comparing this year's results with past years results. But past years were off on backup. One of the analysts asked the sysadmin to retrieve a past result for a specific client, specific year. The sysadmin retrieved the relevant take and untar'd the directory ... only he made a mistake, put a space before the "*". Overwrote the whole machine. Open files continued, that's UNIX. But pretty soon it was apparent something was very wrong. Eventually the previous day's tape was restored, but in effect three days work was lost. The problem was that the backup strategy did not reflect the business processes. It had been optimized for the convenience of the IT department, assuming complete destruction and hence the need for complete restore. I had advised the IT manager not to take full image backups but to take differential or localized backups. The idea of a 'backup only what has changed' is inherent in the way 'rsync' works. In fact 'rsync' would allow full image baseline then incremental. But not to tape. I can't see how 'rsync' can work to tape :-( Which gets me to my next question. Rsync has two areas that confuse me. The first is the '--backup', the second is the '--delete'. The backup seems to be able to keep at least one generation back of the files. Can it keep more than one? How? The '--delete' family is generally confusing. An example: Suppose you have a directory and are accumulating .txt files along with other stuff, but get so many you want to organize them and create TextFiles/ 2012/ Jan-Apr/ May-Aug/ Sep-Dec/ 2013/ as above 2014/ as above and move/sort things. Presumably a 'rsync' will now create that image at the destination. But what about the old top level .txt files at the destination? Presumably without a "--delete-<something>" they will be left there. What other options are there? -- People are more easily led than driven. - David Harold Fink -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-02-20 13:27, jdd wrote:

rsync is very flexible, but can do much harm in bad cases. Speially you have to ask yourself: do I need --delete or not? If many things change every day, not usind delete may give enormous amounts of data, but using it may lose previous configs (for example)

I once destroyed my system by doing a backup with rsync. I don't remember now what I did exactly. I think I was comparing backup to original, but there was a --delete in there, and I used the wrong backup... it deleted the entire original tree. And there was no current backup, because I was actually doing the backup... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlMF/f0ACgkQja8UbcUWM1zhIAEAkBvjL7Vs1ECY0bMBMEThucyg pxlKfkeFkiaJSKxVb9wBAIJKpU/FCcpTbaqfhFzDNQpNq9bmGHh9CbZ9dR5RMVcC =DNYi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/20/2014 08:07 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I once destroyed my system by doing a backup with rsync. I don't remember now what I did exactly. I think I was comparing backup to original, but there was a --delete in there, and I used the wrong backup... it deleted the entire original tree. And there was no current backup, because I was actually doing the bac

This is why I'm reluctant to use the --delete family. The documentation on it is so awful. -- No one who's seen it in action can say the phrase "government help" without either laughing or crying. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org