-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 17 February 2004 03:17 pm, Henry Harpending wrote:

On Tuesday 17 February 2004 12:53, c_nelson77 wrote:

...

Ok here is a little(BIG) Rant I have w/ Linux/SUSE, actualy 5 . .

Use apt and synaptic and everything will be all right. Look at http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/.

The upgrades to kde3.2 from here are fine, but the installation often gags on minor file conflicts. When this happens quit synaptic, go to /var/cache/apt/archive, and force install them, i.e rpm -Uvh --force *.rpm.

Henry Harpending

What do you get when you run kbuildsycoca from the command line? A list of warnings about mime types? I'm using YaST to install the 3.2 rpms, and found only only one thing that seems to be a dependency conflict. That's the kdebase3-SuSE. I'm currently reinstalling all the RPMs listed as being in conflict after removing the kdebase3-SuSE. Two other issues arose. One was the 3.1.x mail rpm was in conflict, and I tried to force it. That turned out to be a mistake. It is not needed. Also the kgpg rmp is being removed as I type. I hope it doesn't break things too much. This is the list of conflicts I had when I started today. I had been ignoring them, but this time I'm trying the first option. #### YaST2 conflicts list - generated 2004-02-17 14:51:58 #### kdebase3-SuSE 9.0-68 conflict Conflicts with: kdebase3 conflicts with kdebase3-SuSE <= 9.0- Conflict Resolution: ( ) Do Not Install kdebase3-SuSE ( ) Remove All 12 Conflicting Packages Delete kdeaddons3-kate Delete kdebase3 Delete kdevelop3 Delete kwix Delete kdebase3-nsplugin Delete kdeartwork3 Delete kwifimanager Delete kdeutils3 4 more... Delete kdenetwork3-lan Delete kdeaddons3-konqueror Delete kdebase3-devel Do Not Install kdebase3-SuSE ( ) Ignore Conflict and Risk System Inconsistencies #### YaST2 conflicts list END ### STH -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAMnmTH2SF0i7rrGwRAkUWAJ9Sj0Zf7KHzqPvAMbQeRYKiEGBEuQCgnS4v 6UOmNK8G6ihmXJkEI8hKovg= =VVgv -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 17 February 2004 03:50 pm, Henry Harpending wrote:

On Tuesday 17 February 2004 13:29, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

...

What do you get when you run kbuildsycoca from the command line? A list of warnings about mime types?

Yes, lots of them.

Do you have some problems when you click file icons which used to launch programs? Do your image thumbnails work in Konqueror. Mine don't. I've actually been trying to learn about how this system works. Sycoca is some kind of services database used by apps to locate supporting facilities for specific file types, etc. I'm pretty sure this is defined by a desktop configuration standard the KDE share with Gnome. I still haven't gotten to the bottom of it all.

...

being in conflict after removing the kdebase3-SuSE.

I never installed it.

Things just would be as fun without the SuSE provided wallpaper and icons. It's back on my system. Removing it made no difference.

...

Also the kgpg rmp is being removed as I type. I hope it doesn't break things too much.

I didn't install this one either.

Well, I still have the little wallet icon in the systray, so I guess I'm OK without it.

I don't know what kdebase3-suse does but I run just fine without it.

Well, since every release is a bit different, I'm not sure exactly what it does, *this time*. rpm -ql kdebase3-SuSE tells me it's mostly pngs, but there are also a lot of rc files, and a few .so files. What exactly they do, I don't know. Tue Feb 17 21:04:46:> rpm -qi kdebase3-SuSE Name : kdebase3-SuSE Relocations: (not relocateable) Version : 9.0 Vendor: SuSE Linux AG, Nuernberg, Germany Release : 68 Build Date: Wed 24 Sep 2003 10:07:12 AM EDT Install date: Tue 17 Feb 2004 03:58:56 PM EST Build Host: E92.suse.de Group : System/GUI/KDE Source RPM: kdebase3-SuSE-9.0-68.src.rpm Size : 7780176 License: GPL Signature : DSA/SHA1, Wed 24 Sep 2003 10:12:23 AM EDT, Key ID a84edae89c800aca Packager : http://www.suse.de/feedback Summary : KDE SuSE extension Description : This package contains the standard SuSE desktop and menu extensions for the Kpanel. Authors: - -------- Artwork: Ken W. Wimer Torsten Rahn Everaldo Implementation: Adrian Schröter Marcus Meissner Oliver Ries Ludwig Nussel Distribution: SuSE Linux 9.0 (i586)

Henry Harpending

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 17 February 2004 10:04 pm, Henry Harpending wrote:

On Tuesday 17 February 2004 19:11, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

I do have image thumbnails, and those and other files seem to do the right thing when I click them.

Thanks for letting me know that. I've been asking for days if anybody had that working, and no one responded. After you said that, I started poking around and discovered the 'preview' mode which I had tried on other formats, but not images. It's just changed functionality I wasn't aware of. They work now. Also, all my mime types seem to be working now. I'm not sure when that got fixed. Now the only thing I have broken is the kdmrc, which I don't really care too much about. I'm sure I could start gnome by hand if I really wanted to.

...

Things just would [not] be as fun without the SuSE provided wallpaper and icons. It's back on my system. Removing it made no difference.

I told apt to install it and it wanted to remove a lot of KDE first. I backed out.

I think it would normally have been on your system by default. It must have been removed at some point. It's been tradition that the SuSE KDE stuff has to be forced into new KDE upgrades. I just do it out of habit.

Henry Harpending

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"Steven T. Hatton" wrote:

"Why does SuSE have to provide you with the latest software? I'm not sure exactly what dependencies and things 'outside of what SuSE provides you' you are talking about, but I've found things usually work fairly well when I upgrade software beyond what was in the distribution. I find it rather generous of SuSE to make an effort to support these upgrades on distribution going back over a year. You are always free to get the bits yourself and build your own. I do it almost every day with Mozilla, XEmacs, and lately KDevelop." First, I'm really enjoying SuSE 9.0. The first time I gave linux a go I tried Mandrake 9.1. I really liked it, but I like SuSE even better. That being said, our ranting friend does make me ask: if you're going to put some packages out there under the guise of being functional (albeit minimally, which SuSE's site DOES claim functionality, despite the disclaimer of "use at your own risk"), why not make sure the packages really are functional? For newbies such as myself who don't know how to hack programs and edit files, certain functionality (though not necessarily "guaranteed") would really be nice. I have very limited time, being in law school and having a 15-month old, and I'm unable to learn to do all of these things right now. I'm not asking that SuSE provide me with all the latest, but if they're going to put something out their, at least make sure it works to the point that you don't need disclaimers (but not necessarily to the point of guarantee, either). I would rather not have the banana dangled in front of me if it's still a little too green to eat. Also, make it a little easier to install. Which brings me to... "YOU is for up_dates_ not up_grades_." Why is this not the case? Let me rephrase: why wasn't YOU designed to implement upgrades as well as updates? Heck, I would be happy if I could figure out how to install packages from a file, a la redcarpet. That would really help out a lot. If there is something wrong with the KDE source code, http://developer.kde.org/ fix it. I would love to if I knew how to do such things and had the time/patience to learn. I can see that big strides are being made to make Linux more user-friendly (read: non-nerd, for the rest of us dummies), but more is needed. I'm all for a world where linux has at least half the market in desktops, but ease of use still has some time. If I wasn't the nerd I am, I would just stick to Windoze like most. It may suck on security and so many other things, but it's easy. Just my thoughts. Jack

You mean download a rpm-package and install it by clicking on it, or download a number of rpms and install them through Yast in one go, or do you want to upgrade KDE using Yast? All of that is easily possible.

Sven

Options 2 and 3 please. I've been able to figure out how to install an rpm by clicking on it (in konqueror; but not in nautilus). I would love to be able to install a number of rpms and install them via YaST in one go, and/or upgrade KDE using YaST. If you could tell me how, that'd be awesome! er...wait. Will KDE 3.2 work? Thanks! Jack

On Tuesday 17 February 2004 19:05, Philipp Thomas wrote:

First of all, please limit your line length to not more than 80 characters (not much more then 70 would be even better :). This makes it easier to view your mail with a text mode MUA and also eases replying.

brooksfamily@sunflower.com [Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:30:50 -0600]:

...

For newbies such as myself who don't know how to hack programs and edit files, certain functionality (though not necessarily "guaranteed") would really be nice.

Newbies should just refrain from doing such an upgrade. These KDE upgrades are unsupported and only meant for those that know how to deal with problems that might arise.

...

"YOU is for up_dates_ not up_grades_."

Why is this not the case? Let me rephrase: why wasn't YOU designed to implement upgrades as well as updates?

Of cause YOU could also do upgrades. But it is strict SUSE policy to not offer version upgrades for released distributions if it can be avoided. The reason is, that new versions may behave differently or have different dependencies, just to name a few reasons. Version updates are left for new versions of SUSE Linux.

...

Heck, I would be happy if I could figure out how to install packages from a file, a la redcarpet. That would really help out a lot.

Check out apt4rpm, it might offer what you want.

cheers Philipp

Awesome. Thanks for the info! Jack P.S. I love it that there are people out there like all of you on this list who are willing to help out the less-knowledgeable such as myself. Thanks guys! Oh yeah. Sorry about the line length. I don't know how to change it.

A reply to everyone mostly. First thing, about the people telling me that if I want to be bleeding edge, that it costs something. That is the whole thing. I do not want to be bleeding edge. I just want some things to work. an IM client that can't IM anyone, doesn't work. But having to upgrade to KDE 3.2 because of dependencies . . . I am paying someone to do stuff. Every time I have called, the problem is outside the support boundary. There are issues w/ linux. SuSE claims to be "the" desktop. However, I don't see it. It was working great, untill I need to get a new version of some small piece of software, that ends up being a huge task. About paying someone to make the RPM's, I am. Thats why I buy SuSE. I have 7.2, 8.0, and 9.0.(I have also bought RH 5.0,5.2,6.0,6.1; Corel 1.0; MD 7.2?) The 5 most important things I do with a desktop for me are Web, E-Mail, IM clients, Star Office, and network(internet and samba). And I do use konopixx STD on my laptop w/ 1 gig HD w/o problems, because I never need to upgrade software. I also have no problem w/ Solaris w/ patchadd and the like. ;) About the sound. The problems I am talking about are: 1. Sounds seam to forget to play quite often. 2. Apps don't play well when more than 1 app using sound at a time.(listening to MP3 and ksirc or gaim message comes in) 3. Others in the suse@irc.freenode.com claim it is just how sound is in linux. About the RPM being broken, I'm talking about what it claims to be, and reality. What it's claims were, are basically not having to worry about dependencies. And that is what I am frustrated at. Dealign with all the dependencies. I have to deal with them when I do ./configure;make;make install. And it is sometimes worse, having to make room to install all the source + the new binaries, etc. Ideally. I would love rpm to work across more than distro/version of linux. Is that really to hard? And when I mentioned registry, I didn't' mean exactly what MS has, but a more robust and functional rpm. Where it would help fill in the blanks to make an RPM work on more than one little distros release. This letter was mostly a rant. I was frustrated and wanted to vent at something besides my poor wall ;). Because I just wanted a newer version of some small apps, and it ends up being a huge ordeal, and this is a very common occurance. Obviously it looks like I pissed off some people who do not like people talking bad about their precious linux. I will look into Debian/Gentoo, but people wont be making money if all of SuSE's desktop answers are that. -Cody P.S. If anyone thinks I am wrong, then why not prove it by showing me the better way? I think I asked for a better way if anyone knew it? On Tuesday 17 February 2004 19:45, Adalberto Castelo wrote:

On Tuesday 17 February 2004 14:53, c_nelson77 wrote:

...

Ok here is a little(BIG) Rant I have w/ Linux/SUSE, actualy 5 . .

1. Why do I have to upgrade the entire system just to get a new version of an app? k3b, gaim, etc? I upgraded from 8.1 to 9.0 just so I can have

You don't have to. Go ahead and upgrade only the applications you want. Download the source, compile and install it. What's that? You don't want to do it yourself? You want SuSE to do it for you?! Ahh, sure, just pay them money for the next release...

...

working apps. I can't even easily upgrade KDE to 3.2 using SuSE provided RPM's because it requires that I have already upgraded my KDE outside of what SUSE provides me? wtf? All I want is a working app like k3b, gaim, mozilla, kmail, etc. I don't care about the 1000000's of dependancies.

2. Why can I not upgrade the majority of thigns with YOU? Thank god someone I'm not paying is providing updates via http://packman.links2linux.org/ and http://www.usr-local-bin.org/ . beleave it or not, but I bought 9.0 for 2 reasons. Using a non broken versions of an IM client (GAIM), and cd burning software(k3b).

You didn't have to, all you had to do is go download those apps somewhere and install them. Oh, wait. You can't do it, I forgot. I guess you'll have to pay someone then.

...

3. Why is KDE & apps so slow? Yes I said slow. 384 ram, 9g 10k scsi hd, matrox g400, AMD 850. And is is slower than XP on a 600mhz vodoo3 3000, 256 ram system. Slow, meaning windows to come up, heck yast takes longer to come up than word on windows!

XP? X-Men? X-files? Huh?

...

4. What is the deal with the f-d up sound? Many diff soudn cards are broken, and from talking with others in linux, they all are. Example. KSirc, Gaim, and listening to mp3's or watchign a movie, game, etc. Does not work. Heck gaim sounds by itself bearly works. Most of the time, sounds do not get played. And people tell me thats normal linux sound. (right now, using a SB AWE 64, ISA(have used built in sound, santa cruze, sb 16, aureal) Something MS has had no problems with since NT.

Buddy, if you were so happy with NT, why the heck are you using SuSE?

...

5. Umm hellow? Why bother to provide a broken GAIM? Yes, it is broken, yahoo, icq, and msn do not work on anything that ancient. Heck if i rememebr right, gaim .7x was out before SuSE 9.0. Sorry but kopete is ugly as hell, and doesn't do basic things. Why bother making it, just help make gaim (or other) work better.

SuSE doesn't make GAIM. Nor kopete.

[...]

...

P.P.S. RPM doesn;t work, linux needs a registry (excluding saved settings/info from apps) where 1 RPM many linux distros, mandy versions. You get this on thing working like this, it will be far easier makign things "Just Work".

... I have no words ...

...

PPPS, never use resierfs. horrible support. has no way to deal with bad blocks. Even dos has that.

PPPPS sorry for all the post scripts.

PSs are the least of your problems, pal...

Now, the only sincere piece of advice I have for you. In Linux you have to opt. If you want stability and easy of use, what you do is you go to a distro where there are a bunch of smart guys testing things and making sure they work and simplifying the whole process for you. Now, if you want bleeding edge, pick a distro that puts enphasis on bleeding edge, not SuSE. It may not be as stable, and usually the responsability for keeping the system working well is more yours the theirs. Suggestion: gentoo seems like a great distro for you, in that aspect. I've been seriously considering it for a second machine.

Good luck.

On Wednesday 18 February 2004 03:29, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

Perhaps the request for help got lost in all the ranting. I could have told you how to use YaST to install KDE 3.2, but as it was, I had no motivation to help.

STH

Uh, could you tell me? I promise to not rant or complain! Thanks Jack

On Wed, 2004-02-18 at 00:38, c_nelson77 wrote:

About the RPM being broken, I'm talking about what it claims to be, and reality. What it's claims were, are basically not having to worry about dependencies. And that is what I am frustrated at. Dealign with all the dependencies. I have to deal with them when I do ./configure;make;make install. And it is sometimes worse, having to make room to install all the source + the new binaries, etc. Ideally. I would love rpm to work across more than distro/version of linux. Is that really to hard? And when I mentioned registry, I didn't' mean exactly what MS has, but a more robust and functional rpm. Where it would help fill in the blanks to make an RPM work on more than one little distros release.

Have you checked out apt4rpm (Advanced Package Tool for Redhat Package Manager)? It does what it sounds like you want RPMs to do. It's a little confusing to get set up properly but once there you can just tell it to update some software application and it will check the dependencies. (So far, just like RPM.) If it finds dependencies and you don't already have the rpm on your system, APT will automagically find the required RPM and download/install it, and then continue on with the original install. There's also a GUI (Synaptic) to make your life even easier. It's not quite as great as I made it sound, after all it is still under development, but it's pretty good. You might want to give it a try. As to pissing off people, yeah you probably did piss off some people. But you have to admit that your original rant was pretty confrontational. I haven't been a Linux user for all that long and I still remember some stinging flames from some of the gurus on this list. I read them and tried to learn from them. Guess what I discovered. You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. Just a little personal philosophy to ignore at your option. Donald D. Henson, Managing Director West El Paso Information Network Want to know what it would be like to live in chaos? Look around.

Is this not exactly why the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard was proposed? Note also that SuSE is claiming to be in line with this - look at the directory locations for mysql for instance. They are not the same as the standard distribution, having been moved by SuSE to conform to the standard. In fact, a quick look shows that /usr/local directory tree has no files in it! As soon as you try and install a non-SuSE supplied RPM (or build from source) you see that almost everything wants to go into /usr/local by default. On Wednesday 18 February 2004 15:02, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

On Wednesday 18 February 2004 02:38 am, c_nelson77 wrote:

...

And when I mentioned registry, I didn't' mean exactly what MS has, but a more robust and functional rpm. Where it would help fill in the blanks to make an RPM work on more than one little distros release.

I've suggested very much the same thing years ago. I even used the 'r' word. To some extent that seems to be evolving in pieces on its own. I have many ideas along these lines. One thing I would like to see is every app going in its own space with a very standard file structure, and having a properties file it presents to the rest of the world so what it provides, and what it requires can be read from that location.

As I said, I have *many* ideas about this. Uniformity is a very good thing until it becomes inflexible and restrictive. Often what seems to be restrictive isn't as bad as one might think. I'm talking about suff like appdir/lib appdir/bin appdir/include ... I think it is very ugly to have apps spread all over the harddrive with their images copied into one place, their executables into another place. X11/bin comes to mind.

It goes on and on. Whatever happened to that Reiser guy?

...

-Cody

STH

-- Best Regards David Barnes

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 18 February 2004 03:42 pm, Paul Cooke wrote:

On Wednesday 18 February 2004 6:26 pm, David Barnes wrote:

...

In fact, a quick look shows that /usr/local directory tree has no files in it!

As soon as you try and install a non-SuSE supplied RPM (or build from source) you see that almost everything wants to go into /usr/local by default.

and that's where it's /supposed/ to go... /local/ to your system. If you want it otherwise, then you've got to go and edit the resources to point to usr/ share instead.

To be pedantic, it means local to your site. Typically stuff that would be shared by several systems on a local network, more or less. I'm several revs back on this. And haven't looked at it in years, so things may have changed. But this is the gospel of /supposed to/ for Linux file systems. The way I read the document years ago, suff such as the KDE is in the correct place on a SuSE box. Gnu wants to put everything in usr/local. Which isn't all that problematic because SuSE leaves that pretty much alone. IIRC, /usr/share is actually for apps shared on the box, not the network, but I would have to review to be sure.

Paul Cooke

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On Wednesday 18 February 2004 21:43, Trey Gruel wrote:

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

...

On Wednesday 18 February 2004 03:42 pm, Paul Cooke wrote:

...

and that's where it's /supposed/ to go... /local/ to your system. If you want it otherwise, then you've got to go and edit the resources to point to usr/ share instead.

To be pedantic, it means local to your site. Typically stuff that would be shared by several systems on a local network, more or less. I'm several revs back on this. And haven't looked at it in years, so things may have changed. But this is the gospel of /supposed to/ for Linux file systems.

The way I read the document years ago, suff such as the KDE is in the correct place on a SuSE box. Gnu wants to put everything in usr/local. Which isn't all that problematic because SuSE leaves that pretty much alone. IIRC, /usr/share is actually for apps shared on the box, not the network, but I would have to review to be sure.

i've used plenty of systems where the entire /usr tree (not including the /usr/local subtree which was usually empty anyway) was mounted from a remote machine via nfs. on most of them, everything not required to be local was an nfs mount.

as it stands now, i install anything i compile from source in /usr/local which i have as a separate partition so i can upgrade my distro without worrying that it might overwrite something i installed myself.

i'm glad that suse puts /opt to good use keeping major components like kde and gnome separate from the rest of the system so /usr/bin doesn't become the overcrowded nightmare it is in redhat.

-- trey

Gentlemen, I think you have missed the point I was trying to make. * Non-SuSE sourced RPM's still tend to ignore the FHS and just dump things into /usr/local. * SuSE look to be following the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard, putting applications into /opt with their data in /var, OS related but shareable packages into /usr/share, and leaving /usr/local for the system administrator to put local software into. My point was that blindly dumping into /usr/local is a bad idea. -- Best Regards David Barnes

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

...

On Wednesday 18 February 2004 03:42 pm, Paul Cooke wrote:

...

and that's where it's /supposed/ to go... /local/ to your system. If you want it otherwise, then you've got to go and edit the resources to point to usr/ share instead.

To be pedantic, it means local to your site. Typically stuff that would be shared by several systems on a local network, more or less. I'm several revs back on this. And haven't looked at it in years, so things may have changed. But this is the gospel of /supposed to/ for Linux file systems.

The way I read the document years ago, suff such as the KDE is in the correct place on a SuSE box. Gnu wants to put everything in usr/local. Which isn't all that problematic because SuSE leaves that pretty much alone. IIRC, /usr/share is actually for apps shared on the box, not the network, but I would have to review to be sure.

i've used plenty of systems where the entire /usr tree (not including the /usr/local subtree which was usually empty anyway) was mounted from a remote machine via nfs. on most of them, everything not required to be local was an nfs mount.

as it stands now, i install anything i compile from source in /usr/local which i have as a separate partition so i can upgrade my distro without worrying that it might overwrite something i installed myself.

i'm glad that suse puts /opt to good use keeping major components like kde and gnome separate from the rest of the system so /usr/bin doesn't become the overcrowded nightmare it is in redhat.

-- trey Every time my 15 year old tried to goof off by inventing yet another way to do one of his chores, he was met with the simple truth that, the mundane things in life would be better off if they remained mundane. The same advice should be given to all open software developrs. While it is true that the originator of this thread was -as he himself plainly said- "ranting", there is still a lesson or two to be learned by this "ranting". Lesson one should be the realization that it is a ridiculocity to a: have each app choose an arbitrary file installation path AND b: lack the simple capacity to deal with stuff installed in not the expected path. these two issues alone probably account for a third or more of NEWBIE problems. Another third or so of the NEWBIE

On Wednesday 18 February 2004 11:43, Trey Gruel wrote: problems lie with the "comprehensive" incomprehensiveness of "full" distributions like SuSE. A very simple example of that is the almost total failure of yast in installing a samba printer! Just going "by the book" in the system i am writing this post from, has resulted in a setup under which my SuSE 9.0 can see the windoze machine where the printer is installed, alas, it will not print there. The maddening thing is that, after installation of an xp and a windoze 2k virtual machine in my vmware 4.0 (want a story on that too?, i got one!), BOTH doze vm's can see not only my SuSE system, but by going "through" it they reach the xp machine with the printer AND the printer installed in the xp machine!!!! BUT NOT MY NATIVE SuSE 9.0 OS!!!! All advertising and all indications of Yast had made it clear that the printer "was" available! Well, it was *not*! It took quite a bit of work and a bunch of "cryptic" (for a NEWBIE) commands as root to correct the situation! If SuSE can not find that printer as simply as 'windoze", then it should not advertise that it can... It is less than a third of the issues that a NEWBIE comes up against that should require help from a wonderful forum like this. Unfortunately, in a day or two, there will be yet another samba printer or sound thread. Yes, i got them both working thanks to this forum, however, if linux is to mount any sort of a threat to ms, i should not have had to use this forum, packman, mplayerhq.hu (nice and complete mplayer setup) and so on for some of the really basic stuff. AGAIN, PLEASE NOTE, i am talking about NEWBIES... and, unfortunately, I am asking open software developers to keep it simple, concistent and flexible with the inconcistensies of others. As much as some dislike that species, if it is going to happen, it is the NEWBIES who will make linux grand. imitris

On Wed, 2004-02-18 at 00:38 -0700, c_nelson77 wrote:

About the sound. The problems I am talking about are: 1. Sounds seam to forget to play quite often. 2. Apps don't play well when more than 1 app using sound at a time.(listening to MP3 and ksirc or gaim message comes in)

The problem is that you have a sound card that can't handle more than one program using it at a time. KDE has solved that by introducing a sound daemon, arts. All KDE programs send their sounds through that daemon, and it multiplexes them together. If you use non-KDE programs with KDE programs, they clash. So when you run non-KDE programs, you should run them with artsdsp <program> to make them use the KDE sound daemon.

3. Others in the suse@irc.freenode.com claim it is just how sound is in linux.

No, that's how sound is with old sound cards.

Ideally. I would love rpm to work across more than distro/version of linux.

Most do. Which ones have you actually tried that didn't work?

Sorry SuSE has always work for my. But I did build my box just for linux? maybe you need to look at your hardware or try to reinstall On Wed, 2004-02-18 at 00:38, c_nelson77 wrote:

A reply to everyone mostly.

First thing, about the people telling me that if I want to be bleeding edge, that it costs something. That is the whole thing. I do not want to be bleeding edge. I just want some things to work. an IM client that can't IM anyone, doesn't work. But having to upgrade to KDE 3.2 because of dependencies . . .

I am paying someone to do stuff. Every time I have called, the problem is outside the support boundary. There are issues w/ linux. SuSE claims to be "the" desktop. However, I don't see it. It was working great, untill I need to get a new version of some small piece of software, that ends up being a huge task.

About paying someone to make the RPM's, I am. Thats why I buy SuSE. I have 7.2, 8.0, and 9.0.(I have also bought RH 5.0,5.2,6.0,6.1; Corel 1.0; MD 7.2?) The 5 most important things I do with a desktop for me are Web, E-Mail, IM clients, Star Office, and network(internet and samba). And I do use konopixx STD on my laptop w/ 1 gig HD w/o problems, because I never need to upgrade software. I also have no problem w/ Solaris w/ patchadd and the like. ;)

About the sound. The problems I am talking about are: 1. Sounds seam to forget to play quite often. 2. Apps don't play well when more than 1 app using sound at a time.(listening to MP3 and ksirc or gaim message comes in) 3. Others in the suse@irc.freenode.com claim it is just how sound is in linux.

About the RPM being broken, I'm talking about what it claims to be, and reality. What it's claims were, are basically not having to worry about dependencies. And that is what I am frustrated at. Dealign with all the dependencies. I have to deal with them when I do ./configure;make;make install. And it is sometimes worse, having to make room to install all the source + the new binaries, etc. Ideally. I would love rpm to work across more than distro/version of linux. Is that really to hard? And when I mentioned registry, I didn't' mean exactly what MS has, but a more robust and functional rpm. Where it would help fill in the blanks to make an RPM work on more than one little distros release.

This letter was mostly a rant. I was frustrated and wanted to vent at something besides my poor wall ;). Because I just wanted a newer version of some small apps, and it ends up being a huge ordeal, and this is a very common occurance. Obviously it looks like I pissed off some people who do not like people talking bad about their precious linux.

I will look into Debian/Gentoo, but people wont be making money if all of SuSE's desktop answers are that.

-Cody

P.S. If anyone thinks I am wrong, then why not prove it by showing me the better way? I think I asked for a better way if anyone knew it?

On Tuesday 17 February 2004 19:45, Adalberto Castelo wrote:

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On Tuesday 17 February 2004 14:53, c_nelson77 wrote:

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Ok here is a little(BIG) Rant I have w/ Linux/SUSE, actualy 5 . .

1. Why do I have to upgrade the entire system just to get a new version of an app? k3b, gaim, etc? I upgraded from 8.1 to 9.0 just so I can have

You don't have to. Go ahead and upgrade only the applications you want. Download the source, compile and install it. What's that? You don't want to do it yourself? You want SuSE to do it for you?! Ahh, sure, just pay them money for the next release...

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working apps. I can't even easily upgrade KDE to 3.2 using SuSE provided RPM's because it requires that I have already upgraded my KDE outside of what SUSE provides me? wtf? All I want is a working app like k3b, gaim, mozilla, kmail, etc. I don't care about the 1000000's of dependancies.

2. Why can I not upgrade the majority of thigns with YOU? Thank god someone I'm not paying is providing updates via http://packman.links2linux.org/ and http://www.usr-local-bin.org/ . beleave it or not, but I bought 9.0 for 2 reasons. Using a non broken versions of an IM client (GAIM), and cd burning software(k3b).

You didn't have to, all you had to do is go download those apps somewhere and install them. Oh, wait. You can't do it, I forgot. I guess you'll have to pay someone then.

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3. Why is KDE & apps so slow? Yes I said slow. 384 ram, 9g 10k scsi hd, matrox g400, AMD 850. And is is slower than XP on a 600mhz vodoo3 3000, 256 ram system. Slow, meaning windows to come up, heck yast takes longer to come up than word on windows!

XP? X-Men? X-files? Huh?

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4. What is the deal with the f-d up sound? Many diff soudn cards are broken, and from talking with others in linux, they all are. Example. KSirc, Gaim, and listening to mp3's or watchign a movie, game, etc. Does not work. Heck gaim sounds by itself bearly works. Most of the time, sounds do not get played. And people tell me thats normal linux sound. (right now, using a SB AWE 64, ISA(have used built in sound, santa cruze, sb 16, aureal) Something MS has had no problems with since NT.

Buddy, if you were so happy with NT, why the heck are you using SuSE?

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5. Umm hellow? Why bother to provide a broken GAIM? Yes, it is broken, yahoo, icq, and msn do not work on anything that ancient. Heck if i rememebr right, gaim .7x was out before SuSE 9.0. Sorry but kopete is ugly as hell, and doesn't do basic things. Why bother making it, just help make gaim (or other) work better.

SuSE doesn't make GAIM. Nor kopete.

[...]

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P.P.S. RPM doesn;t work, linux needs a registry (excluding saved settings/info from apps) where 1 RPM many linux distros, mandy versions. You get this on thing working like this, it will be far easier makign things "Just Work".

... I have no words ...

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PPPS, never use resierfs. horrible support. has no way to deal with bad blocks. Even dos has that.

PPPPS sorry for all the post scripts.

PSs are the least of your problems, pal...

Now, the only sincere piece of advice I have for you. In Linux you have to opt. If you want stability and easy of use, what you do is you go to a distro where there are a bunch of smart guys testing things and making sure they work and simplifying the whole process for you. Now, if you want bleeding edge, pick a distro that puts enphasis on bleeding edge, not SuSE. It may not be as stable, and usually the responsability for keeping the system working well is more yours the theirs. Suggestion: gentoo seems like a great distro for you, in that aspect. I've been seriously considering it for a second machine.

Good luck. -- john bright

* Jean Hendrickx [02-19-04 17:56]:

Hi, using SuSE 9.0 and CUPS, we've a Frame Relay printer server with 3 printers, and ... almost everything works fine; but from time to time (almost once a week), one printer (no always the same), gots disabled and /var/log/cups/error_log have:

W [03/Feb/2004:10:53:35 -0400] [Job 875] Remote host did not respond with command status byte after 300 seconds! E [03/Feb/2004:10:53:35 -0400] PID 15078 stopped with status 1!

I think this can be because a fault (off line) printer or lack on bandwidth ... CUPS didn't see the printer as online and disables it; but how can I tell CUPS to check the printer's status to put it back online every 5 mins or so?

man cupsd.conf -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org