On Wednesday 05 January 2005 17:07, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

Hate to say it, but it looks like 2.6.8 is a big loser, judging from your post and others.

I didn't have any problems with the 2.6.8 kernel that came on the DVD, only with the security updates which turned out to be trouble. By the way, I also found out that the "module not supported" message shows up with that kernel too and only means that SuSE does not offer support for the smbfs module. The smbfs problem only shows up when you mount samba shares from a Linux machine to a Linux machine. If the share is shared from a Windows machine than everything works fine (I just checked this at work too). Brana

I have used 2.6.8 vanilla and it sucks. SuSE patched it up well, but a SuSE

I guess it depends on the hardware and the applications you use. The installation was bumpy for me (worst experience with SuSE yet) but afterwards I got all my hardware working with not more problems than with previous SuSE versions. The only thing I couldn't fix is this smbfs problem. All the problems I had came from the security updates..

Greetings, First off let me say that i am a newbie at this thing called suse and i am not at all an experienced user but I also have to agree that the new kernel in suse 9.1 is just a waste of disk space. among other problems the module module IPX/SPX or nwserv according to the helpdesk is supported and present in this new kernel it is just not there or cannot be addressed by whatever trickary one might perform. I know it is open source and if i want something i will have to install it myself, however if i buy a product which states that what i want can be done with an installation just out of the box and afterwards it cannot be done because the documentation is inadequate because the sales department says it is supported i feel a little bit disappointed greetings Peter Thesing ps my apologies for my english and my off topic posting P Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

On Wednesday 05 January 2005 3:51 pm, Branimir Vasilic wrote:

...

Hi all,

I am losing it a bit with these kernel update problems. I have four

machines (3 at work and 1 at home) running 9.2 or 9.1 with the 2.6.8-24.10 kernel.

...

I lost some files before I realized what was going and I am really not happy about this. Has anybody else seen this problem? Is there anything else I can do other then reverting to an older version of the kernel?

I've had similar problems, including the smb_add_request timing out. So I reverted to the older kernel. I also had a problem with the ethernet module on my motherboard (Via Rhine) being unable to communicate with that newer kernel. And apparently 2.6.8 also causes permissions problems with using k3b as non-root.

Hate to say it, but it looks like 2.6.8 is a big loser, judging from your post and others.

Paul

Jan Elders wrote:

On Thursday 06 January 2005 01:29, peter wrote: //cut

...

however if i buy a product which states that what i want can be done with an installation just out of the box and afterwards it cannot be done because the documentation is inadequate because the sales department says it is supported i feel a little bit disappointed

For two years I am now installing various SuSE distributions (started with 7.3, now running 9.2) and unfortunately I have to agree 100% with Peter's statement. It takes a lot of effort, time, and perseverance to get the system that you want/need. This differs indeed a lot from the promises on the box. SuSE's marketing hype is not covered by the technical contents. Although I hate to admit, I would not advise Linux to people who just want to use their computer as a useful tool without any hassle. One does need a certain amount of W$$-dislike, willingness to tackle challenges and have a fair knowledge of computer / operating system technology to get it all done well. Many people don't have this. I'm afraid this is one of the reasons Linux will not be able to become any threat to W$$. :-( Nevertheless I'm still personally a Linux fan ! ---- Jan Elders the Netherlands http://www.xs4all.nl/~jrme/ "Home of the Network Acronyms"

On the other side, I'd not recommend Windows to anyone, it's been a bane to me when I have to constantly help people to sort out Windows problems. I've installed 9.1 on my daughter's PC just after I installed 9.1 here and I've only been asked a few questions, once when the printer didn't come up enabled and I fixed that by setting up konqueror so she has only to login to webmin and enable it and the other when she couldn't find out how to delete some word files, again I showed her how to use konqueror to do that. Apart from using Windows at work she has no computer knowledge, but she can surf the web, do her spreadsheets and word documents for her needs, the younger daughter has got to grips with the games and I have a quiet life compared to when she used Windows on the same PC. My contention is that the more supposedly technical some people are Windows-wise, the more trouble they'll experience with Linux or any Unix, simply because of the baggage they bring with them and the tinkering around they'd steer well clear of with Windows. We've not had problems with any Linux we've installed when people have suffered the lockups and loss of work that made them look at an alternative. One colleague asked to borrow my SuSE 8.2 CD's, a colleague with little Unix knowledge, just a Solaris Admin 1 class a few years earlier. One day I got a call expressing thanks, he'd installed it on his wife's PC and she was delighted that she could get on with her business, photographic work without the crashes and loss of work she suffered with Windows, verbatim, "My wife thinks it's great", I haven't had a single call from him since regarding Linux. Another colleague asked me to install SuSE 8.0 on his laptop, when I got as far as setting up the partitioning, I got a call to attend to something elsewhere in the office, when I got back, he had it up and running, he's still using 8.0 without problems. Most people never have to install Windows themselves, they call on people like you and me. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====

On Thursday 06 January 2005 18:14, Sid Boyce wrote: // cut

...

On the other side, I'd not recommend Windows to anyone, it's been a bane to me when I have to constantly help people to sort out Windows problems.

// cut

...

Most people never have to install Windows themselves, they call on people like you and me.

Hmm, you got a point here. For most people Windows comes with the PC they buy. If only they could get offered a fully fledged Linux with their new PC. :-)

But this is the catch-22, today they'll have to do it themselves and that is not always a simple as you suggest. Some examples : * Buying "any" 54Mb wireless PCMCIA card and plugging it in under Linux will hardly ever work right away. In that "other" OS it does, usually. * It requires quite some studying/searching before you get the € (euro-sign) working on your Linux box. Is standard available under W$$. * Have you ever tried to play a DVD-movie right after system installation ? Won't work, you need to install a lot of additional stuff first. No problem with W$$. This one is back to the vendors, it is changing though very slowly. There is a review in the last few days on Mepis that stated everything came up and worked, so if the distros take these issues seriouly, such

Jan Elders wrote: things can be as easy as in Windows.

* Accented characters (common for millions of Europeans) don't work right away after the initial installation. You need to know what to do to get that working. I've not succeded in getting the euro sign to work, last tried it about 2 years ago.

* Activation of a SAMBA server needs quite some studying and detailed configuring first. Under W$$ it is rather simple to activate the sharing services. Windows again! Where it matters, people seem to deploy large numbers without problems, but obviously it requires a certain amount of knowledge. I last did this some years ago when I used Linux for file and print serving using Windows 95 on a laptop and on vmware, Linux provided the network connections.

* Getting checks done on SPAM mail and viruses is another challenge. Equivalent tools for W$$ are easy to install. * ........ Windows viruses, malware and worms, Linux is required to protect Windows boxes, that says it all. On spam, it can be done. I've got to try to clean up at least one XP SP2 box of malware, when my neighbour catches up with me again.

Hey, beware before starting to flame me, I'm not complaining about Linux. I love it !!!

No flames from this quarter, you have your say, I have mine, perhaps we both go away with thoughts to mull over, all to the benefit of Linux.

The point I'm trying to make is that installation of a complete Linux system is way too complex for the vast majority of the PC-user community.

Agreed, so is Windows and associated software.

As I said in the beginning : If only they could get offered a full-functional Linux with their new PC, inluding a clear and not-so-technical end-user guide. Then a lot more people could start enjoying Linux than the enthousiast techies of today, like you and me, plus their relatives and friends. Because that is where it stops today, doesn't it ?

Cheers,

I've been with Linux since it first appeared for ftp and I've seen it improve to the point where vastly more people can successfully use it, where it is today is light years away from where it was years ago and it's still moving up rapidly, it's not stuck in a groove. I've had some curious reactions from colleagues who are otherwise quite technically aware, people who work on mainframes and large unix servers, people solving customer problems worldwide on a daily basis, but they don't just get Linux yet, one colleague asked what you do with Linux once you've installed it, I simply pointed to my laptop on the adjacent desk, doing everything he did on his Windows laptop, everything from admin of Solaris servers over the network more effectively than he could using hyperterminal, mail, accessing data, researching problems and from home using VPN to connect to our corporate servers - Linux is holding its own magestically and some of the most sceptical people I've known now are the most ardent advocates of Linux. You'll also see the many adverts from MS, they are not paranoid, they see the potential of Linux and they see it way ahead of their customer base who today are sceptical of Linux and tomorrow will be in the linux fold. FUD is MS's weapon, a weapon that longer term proves useless. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====

Kevin Donnelly wrote:

On Thursday 06 Jan 2005 20:38, Sid Boyce wrote:

...

...

* Accented characters (common for millions of Europeans) don't work right away after the initial installation. You need to know what to do to get that working.

I've not succeded in getting the euro sign to work, last tried it about 2 years ago.

Hmm. On a default SUSE 9.2, on a euro-equipped UK keyboard, using en_GB.utf8 as the locale, it's just AltGr, then 4. You will of course need to use a font that has the symbol to begin with :-)

If you have time to spare one day, install a Unicode font. The GNU Unicode font is not so good-looking, so use one like the beautiful Gentium from SIL (note - this font is not free, though it is cost-free) at http://www.sil.org/computing/catalog/show_software_catalog.asp?by=cat&name=Font. Then try the following key-combinations: AltGr then letter AltrGr+. then letter AltrGr+; then letter AltrGr+' then letter AltrGr+/ then letter AltrGr+# then letter AltrGr+[ then letter AltrGr+] then letter Shift+AltGr+letter Shift+AltGr then c and then letter Shift+AltGr then , and then letter Shift+AltGr then . and then letter Shift+AltGr then ; and thenletter (the last four are a little tricky - you need to press the c/./,/; and the letter fairly quickly in succession, or it won't work)

There is actually a file which I found once that sets all these out, and which you could edit to your heart's content, but unfortunately I've forgotten where in the SUSE filesystem it is! (If anyone knows, please refresh my memory.)

I don't know whether Microsoft Windows offers the same versatility, but I think you'll agree after doing this that quite a few languages are catered for on an ordinary keyboard, without even starting to select fonts, change keyboards in KDE, or setting locales (all of which, of course, can be applied on a per-programme or per-user basis, which Microsoft Windows definitely cannot do). For multilingual work (especially on little-known languages) this is a godsend, since you have access to a huge number of Roman characters with diacritics straight off your default system.

Thanks, AltGr+4 works €. When I tried last time, the howto said AltGr+3 or +e. That would have saved me having to convert my expenses after travelling to Germany, Spain, Ireland and France. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====

Jeffrey Laramie wrote:

...

I've been with Linux since it first appeared for ftp and I've seen it improve to the point where vastly more people can successfully use it, where it is today is light years away from where it was years ago and it's still moving up rapidly, it's not stuck in a groove. I've had some curious reactions from colleagues who are otherwise quite technically aware, people who work on mainframes and large unix servers, people solving customer problems worldwide on a daily basis, but they don't just get Linux yet, one colleague asked what you do with Linux once you've installed it, I simply pointed to my laptop on the adjacent desk, doing everything he did on his Windows laptop, everything from admin of Solaris servers over the network more effectively than he could using hyperterminal, mail, accessing data, researching problems and from home using VPN to connect to our corporate servers - Linux is holding its own magestically and some of the most sceptical people I've known now are the most ardent advocates of Linux. You'll also see the many adverts from MS, they are not paranoid, they see the potential of Linux and they see it way ahead of their customer base who today are sceptical of Linux and tomorrow will be in the linux fold. FUD is MS's weapon, a weapon that longer term proves useless.

Y'know, someone asked me just yesterday (smugly) what my problem was with Windows. This individual just didn't "get" why I was so enthusiastic about Linux. I wish you'd said this earlier since you explained it much better than I could. Bravo Sid.

Jeff - Who doesn't use MS products but still has bunch of OS/2 boxes.

It's difficult at times to convince others. My neighbour distrusts using firefox though IE causes him so much grief with malware, I got the impression that if I had made the attempt to dowload it, I'd have no fingers left. You can bring out a knoppix CD, but they are then suspicious that something foreign and dangerous will land on their hard drive. If you succeed in demoing knoppix, forever after that, Linux will be blamed for any subsequent problems. I can see more widespread use when people at work are forced to use Linux. There are also those who have Linux installed, but keep it a secret until you tell them you run only Linux. Sun hasn't helped either, gnome on Solaris SPARC is a joke and takes away functionality - unless it's smartened up for the final release, it'll give a tarnished impression that could rub off on Linux if the persons are Solaris aware and know next to nothing about Linux. We used OS/2 in our (Amdahl/Fujitsu) mainframe consoles/HMC's and it also was the OS driving the IBM HMC (Hardware Management Console), but they were porting the new HMC to Linux as development of OS/2 stopped. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====

On Thursday 06 January 2005 6:47 pm, Sid Boyce wrote:

...

Jeffrey Laramie wrote:

...

...

I've been with Linux since it first appeared for ftp and I've seen it improve to the point where vastly more people can successfully

...

Jeff - Who doesn't use MS products but still has bunch of OS/2 boxes.

It's difficult at times to convince others. My neighbour distrusts using firefox though IE causes him so much grief with malware, I got the impression that if I had made the attempt to dowload it, I'd have no fingers left. You can bring out a knoppix CD, but they are then suspicious that something foreign and dangerous will land on their hard drive. If you succeed in demoing knoppix, forever after that, Linux will be blamed for any subsequent problems. I can see more widespread use when people at work are forced to use Linux. There are also those who have Linux installed, but keep it a secret until you tell them you run only Linux. Sun hasn't helped either, gnome on Solaris SPARC is a joke and takes away functionality - unless it's smartened up for the final release, it'll give a tarnished impression that could rub off on Linux if the persons are Solaris aware and know next to nothing about Linux. We used OS/2 in our (Amdahl/Fujitsu) mainframe consoles/HMC's and it also was the OS driving the IBM HMC (Hardware Management Console), but they were porting the new HMC to Linux as development of OS/2 stopped. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====

Hi Sid,

I love an optimist!

PeterB If I wasn't an optimist, I'd have given up on Linux many years ago when it was viewed as something quite nasty you could pick up on your shoe,

Peter B Van Campen wrote: the hacker's operating system, the taunts of "Boys Own Unix" - equated with Boys Own Comic and the advice of my colleagues and manager in Tech Support to go back to Win 95, they were getting mail from me that had yards of mime at the top due to their crap mail system which couldn't handle Netscape mail. When it stopped, my boss said he saw I was back on Windows, NO WAY, I was still using Linux but sending mail via X3270. Four years ago the same manager told me they all thought I was crazy for using Linux back then and how times had changed. It was also telling when in an interview Bill Gates said Linux was not on his radar scope and his customers never mentioned Linux, to which there was a reply to the article, the guy said "funny, I've never heard Bill Gates mention Linux before. It was also nice to sit smugly in a meeting when they were detailing the company's intention to support linux on our products as a sales advantage for competing against Sun and IBM, there were a few more of us Linux types who later exchanged satisfying grins - told them they'd come around. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====

suse-linux-e wrote:

Sid Boyce wrote:

...

It's difficult at times to convince others. My neighbour distrusts using firefox though IE causes him so much grief with malware, I got the impression that if I had made the attempt to dowload it, I'd have no fingers left. You can bring out a knoppix CD, but they are then suspicious that something foreign and dangerous will land on their hard drive. If you succeed in demoing knoppix, forever after that, Linux will be blamed for any subsequent problems. I can see more widespread use when people at work are forced to use Linux.

This is where I have an advantage. I'm the boss so I get to select the OS ;-) I'm in an interesting bind however. I don't have good enough hardware to run a modern Linux desktop at a reasonable speed and new hardware isn't an option right now. So everyone thinks the computers are slow because of Linux. Ironically they would be just as slow (or slower) on Windows but I'm not going to install XP just to prove the point.

Linux always carries the blame tag. That's a bind as none of the other light window managers seem to fit the looks of Windows as far as I know, though they have the speed. I have a P-II/333/64M +2M video laptop here which was as slow as treacle with KDE, so when I installed SuSE 9.2, I opted for Windowmaker which has made it very responsive.

...

There are also those who have Linux installed, but keep it a secret until you tell them you run only Linux. Sun hasn't helped either, gnome on Solaris SPARC is a joke and takes away functionality - unless it's smartened up for the final release, it'll give a tarnished impression that could rub off on Linux if the persons are Solaris aware and know next to nothing about Linux.

I haven't looked at the Sun offerings for Linux but I did check out the Solaris 10 preview version. The minimalistic Gnome desktop looked like RH 6.2 and the features I wanted to try (zfs for example) weren't in the preview. I was a bit disappointed although I still think the technology is really interesting.

As it's basically SuSE, I don't think they could mess it up. It remains to be seen if the final product reflects more than Sun's minimalist approach to both hardware and software, though they promise x86_64 hardware no other seller can offer - I've viewed their seminar online and is dynamite marketing material as has been true for every marketing presentation I've ever seen.

...

We used OS/2 in our (Amdahl/Fujitsu) mainframe consoles/HMC's and it also was the OS driving the IBM HMC (Hardware Management Console), but they were porting the new HMC to Linux as development of OS/2 stopped.

We have a number of legacy OS/2 programs that need replacing. I'm re-writing them in C++ and Qt but I'm not much of a programmer and it's going *really* slowly. The old programs were written in an OS/2 dbase style language so 0% of the code is reusable and going from procedural to OO and SQL I'm losing most of the program flow and logic as well. If I can just hold those boxes together for a few more months...

Jeff

Hope all goes well as it looks like quite a project for one person and no budget for it. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====