RE: [SLE] Is Linux Ready?

kevin.jackson＠jhallpr.demon.co.uk

23 May 2000 23 May '00

13:30

However this does not stop people enguaging on the "fool's errand" of trying to find a way to treat HTML authoring as DTP.

I disagree! There is nothing fool hardy about developing a web page in very much the same way you design DTP. This is the goal of "WYSIWYG" Web development packages. By WYSIWYG (the term started in the first thread of this email) for the purpose of these emails we mean what you design is what you see on the browser. And by WYSIWYG it is obvious we mean like VB. And, yes, they push the boundaries of the browsers - but at the end of the day it is a language - and programming languages today always push the boundaries of whatever it is run on. But, of course - the crap tools produce html that even the best fall over on. But get yourself a good tool and this doesn't happen. Unless you use NS4.x that is :) Kev -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

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donh＠halenet.com.au

23 May 23 May

14:22

New subject: [SLE] Is Linux Ready?

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I disagree! There is nothing fool hardy about developing a web page in very much the same way you design DTP. This is the goal of "WYSIWYG" Web development packages. By WYSIWYG (the term started in the first thread of this email) for the purpose of these emails we mean what you design is what you see on the browser. And by WYSIWYG it is obvious we mean like VB.

rant I look upon these things with the same level of disdain that I look at those "engine rebuild in a can" type products. Just because the end result is passable, doesn't mean that a good, workmanlike, job has been done. Sure, you can pour a can of STP in to shut up the knocks in the engine, but would you then want to keep the car? The first "tradesman" who looked inside would know that a shoddy, patch-up job has been done. All-same web pages. As an interested party, I will often call up the page source to see why a particular page is bad (or good) at something. All too often the bad ones have WYSIWIG editor names in the header file. Where tools like Bluefish or Arachnophilia provide shortcuts to get through repetitive parts of a job, so-called 'editors' like FrontPage, Composer, Publisher, etc try to let an amateur do a professionals' job, and consistently fail. I have never used DreamWeaver, but will take your word for it that it generates 'clean' HTML. But the one thing that seals it for me, is the fact that they have not, and apparently, will not, release a version for Linux. Therefore, I will not use their product. A big percentage of my (and I'm sure other peoples') work involves maintaining websites that were originally written by someone else. Some of the one's I come across in the course of my work are nothing short of a dogs' breakfast! One (just last month) had every point where most of us would use a "<P>", made up instead of line after line of " ". Like about 80-100 in a row! Like I've said in every industry I've been in, but even more so in anything computer related, "You can have it cheap, or you can have it good. But you ain't going to have it good AND cheap!" end rant -- Regards Don Hansford ECKYTECH COMPUTING Surfing the Net (without crashing) With SuSE 6.4 Linux (Thanx Linus!) "Microsoft democratised the computer market and served as a catalyst in making computers available to everybody. Later, however, they did as many revolutionaries do -- they became dictators. History has taught us the inevitable fate of dictators." -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

fountai＠hursley.ibm.com

15:11

New subject: [SLE] Is Linux Ready?

...

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I disagree! There is nothing fool hardy about developing a web page in very much the same way you design DTP. This is the goal of "WYSIWYG" Web development packages. By WYSIWYG (the term started in the first thread of this email) for the purpose of these emails we mean what you design is what you see on the browser. And by WYSIWYG it is obvious we mean like VB.

rant I look upon these things with the same level of disdain that I look at those "engine rebuild in a can" type products. Just because the end result is passable, doesn't mean that a good, workmanlike, job has been done. Sure, you can pour a can of STP in to shut up the knocks in the

Presumably you also program in assember because you don't trust a compiler to do a workman like job in building an executable? Do you trust a word processor to lay out your documents correctly? Or a DTP program? Where do you draw the line? Some things can't be done properly by computer. That's why those program generator programs from the 80's never really took off. But HTML is, for the most part, easy, and therefore easy to automate.

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through repetitive parts of a job, so-called 'editors' like FrontPage, Composer, Publisher, etc try to let an amateur do a professionals' job, and consistently fail.

The fact that these editor programs exist and vast numbers of web sites are created using them kind of blows a hole in your argument. An amateur with a good tool can cover 95% of the web site creation task. A professional with a good tool can cover 98% of it. If you, as a professional, choose to do that 98% yourself the hard way, that's your business. Personally, I'd rather get that bit done with a tool and concentrate on the last 2%. It's that last little bit that sets OK sites apart from outstanding ones.

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Like I've said in every industry I've been in, but even more so in anything computer related, "You can have it cheap, or you can have it good. But you ain't going to have it good AND cheap!"

Like SuSE Linux? -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

donh＠halenet.com.au

16:16

New subject: [SLE] Is Linux Ready?

Derek Fountain wrote:

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Presumably you also program in assember because you don't trust a compiler to do a workman like job in building an executable? Do you trust a word processor to lay out your documents correctly? Or a DTP program? Where do you draw the line?

I draw the line at "What will do a GOOD job, with the least amount of backtracking". Why have to go back over the job, just to make sure it was right, when it should have been done right in he first place?

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Some things can't be done properly by computer.

That's why I use a text-based editor!

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That's why those program generator programs from the 80's never really took off.

There isn't much fom the eighties left still going in computing circles ('cept Unix, of course!) But HTML is, for the most part, easy, and

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therefore easy to automate.

Granted. But is it being automated well? Different programs do things in different ways. Take a document, and, in M$ Word, export it to HTML. Then look at the source code that results. Then try the same thing through StarOffice. Like chalk & cheese! Some do certain things better than others, but none can do them as well as a human being (yet!).

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The fact that these editor programs exist and vast numbers of web sites are created using them kind of blows a hole in your argument.

I notice you didn't say "good" web sites.

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An amateur with a good tool can cover 95% of the web site creation task.

Background, and generic (template) layout.

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A professional with a good tool can cover 98% of it.

Background, and a customised layout, desiigned to suit the customers' requirements.

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If you, as a professional, choose to do that 98% yourself the hard way, that's your business.

That's how I do my business, and get repeat business, while all the script-kiddies with their pirated versions of FP (et. al.) are saying they can build a web site for half my price and in half the time. I sell quality, not bland, repetitive, regurgitated quantity.

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Personally, I'd rather get that bit done with a tool and concentrate on the last 2%.

I'd rather get the first 2% right and have a satisfied customer.

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It's that last little bit that sets OK sites apart from outstanding ones.

See, I just knew we would agree on something! :-)

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Like I've said in every industry I've been in, but even more so in anything computer related, "You can have it cheap, or you can have it good. But you ain't going to have it good AND cheap!"

Like SuSE Linux?

I could have d/l'ed the source files for nothing, but I chose to buy the full 6 CD set. That way I got a PROFESSIONALLY built product, that works! Along with the support, and the knowledge that, if I'm away on a business trip and something goes wrong, the poor guy who has to fix it will know where he's at, because it is not made from some cobbled up, tied together with string and wire, and made from componenets that would 'maybe' fit together. I have no say in the way SuSE sets their pricing structure. But I will say that if they doubled their prices tomorrow, it'd still be a bargain! In closing, I will say that my customers come to me for a couple of reasons: a) They know that they will get quality work done, to suit their company image (not someone elses' idea of what their image should be). b) It takes me about 1/2 an hour to teach someone in their organisation how to update their daily specials. This is because I can tell him to "Go to this page, and look for the lines that are indented by (two, three or four) tabs and start with "http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

mhtexcollins＠austin.rr.com

16:46

New subject: [SLE] Is Linux Ready?

Forget about it. Some of these windows hands will never "get it". Stuck way too deep in guiland. Real webmasters write html in vi or emacs. I have shown my guy some wysiwyg tools and he scoffs at them. He can do more in 30 minutes and have a much better looking site than all the gui html editors I have seen can do in 2 hours. And the code is clean and commented if requested. I do not think I have seen any of the wysiwyg editors that will put in appropriate comments for less skilled persons that may need to make changes from time to time. But, like I said, some people just don't get it. Don Hansford wrote:

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Derek Fountain wrote:

-- Michael H. Collins http://www.linuxlink.com Admiral of OpenSourcery Penguinista Navy The Ultimate WM http://www.xfce.org Fun with the Austin Linux group http://www.austinlug.org Need a Real Texas Radio Fix? http://www.texasrebelradio.com -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

fountai＠hursley.ibm.com

17:00

New subject: [SLE] Is Linux Ready?

...

Forget about it. Some of these windows hands will never "get it".

Stuck way too deep in guiland. Real webmasters write html in vi or emacs. I have shown my guy some wysiwyg tools and he scoffs at them. He can do more in 30 minutes and have a much better looking site than all the gui html editors I have seen can do in 2 hours. And the code is clean and commented if requested. I do not think I have seen any of the wysiwyg editors that will put in appropriate comments for less skilled persons that may need to make changes from time to time.

But, like I said, some people just don't get it.

This is not a Windows issue, it's a tools issue. I'm not a "Windows hand" - I'd rather use Linux any day. But I'd also rather use a tool which gets the job done easily than do it by hand the hard way. Writing HTML isn't like carving or painting. A tool can do it, and in the vast majority of cases it can do it just as well as someone who hand codes. For those last few cases, I can always fall back to hand coding - I can read generated HTML even if you can't. Perhaps you could give us a list of the HTML creation tools you've seen? They can't have been very good ones, or at least were being used by amateurs. I know HTML thoroughly, and I can do more in 3 minutes with a GUI based tool than I can in an hour of hand coding. I just can't type that fast, let alone create image maps, etc. Like you say, some people just don't get it. But those people tend not to have to maintain 2000+ page web sites, which is why they don't use tools. -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

calyth＠home.com

24 May 24 May

02:04

New subject: [SLE] Is Linux Ready? WYSIWYG editors rants......

When you (Derek) brought up this assembler vs. compiler analogy for the WYSIWYG vs. text editor, it did make me think a bit. For me I would choose to do the layout of complex graphics with a real good WYSIWYG editor, because doing that in HTML is absolute horror and it never works on all browser (unless you're uber HTML coder). I did it myself for IE but never get it to work for Netscape. I would select a fine balance between automation and manual work. Sure, driving auto is easy, but when it comes to tricky things to get out of usually manual works better. Same goes for programming, languages are easier than assembly, but assembly has its advantages (compact, fast program). But the most important thing that I think we all agree on is the knowledge of what we do. For example, it would be crazy for someone to drive a manual car over snow or ice if they know sh!t about manual, and same goes for HTML. But personally, if the work is all done with WYSIWYG, I wouldn't like it too much. At least use an editor to kill the comment tags they make. Calyth -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

samelash＠ix.netcom.com

10:12

New subject: [SLE] Is Linux Ready? WYSIWYG editors rants......

Huy Guys, I have never written a line of html code , besides a few lines to start a java tutorial app , Why is it so difficult for the gui/wsywig editers to do html layout , why the need for hand editing ? The wsiwig stuff I use are browsers , wordprossers , and data base apps, as well as some programing with delphi which uses wsywig to place components. Thas one app I would realy like to see on Linux. At 05:04 PM 5/23/2000 -0700, Calyth wrote:

...

When you (Derek) brought up this assembler vs. compiler analogy for the WYSIWYG vs. text editor, it did make me think a bit. For me I would choose to do the layout of complex graphics with a real good WYSIWYG editor, because doing that in HTML is absolute horror and it never works on all browser (unless you're uber HTML coder). I did it myself for IE but never get it to work for Netscape. I would select a fine balance between automation and manual work. Sure, driving auto is easy, but when it comes to tricky things to get out of usually manual works better. Same goes for programming, languages are easier than assembly, but assembly has its advantages (compact, fast program). But the most important thing that I think we all agree on is the knowledge of what we do. For example, it would be crazy for someone to drive a manual car over snow or ice if they know sh!t about manual, and same goes for HTML. But personally, if the work is all done with WYSIWYG, I wouldn't like it too much. At least use an editor to kill the comment tags they make.

Calyth

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...

Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

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calyth＠home.com

25 May 25 May

00:30

New subject: [SLE] Is Linux Ready? WYSIWYG editors rants......

For the layout stuff, actually writing a complex layout by hand for one browser is pretty damn hard and I would agree that one should use a GUI WYSIWYG editor, but I would prefer to write the content by hand since there's so many WYSIWYG that insert comments in the code that it actually slow the whole thing down. For example, I was doing HTML project and my friend cheated (hand coding only project) by using something called ImageReady, and I told him that if he doesn't want to get caught, he should delete the comment tags. The minuit he finish deleting the page goes by 3 times as fast. That's why I prefer hand coding. I try not to completely bash one side of any argument because usually they each have some good parts. Calyth -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

A3＠Telkom.net

01:55

New subject: [SLE] Doom Problem

Hello All, Anybody know how to make Doom (XDOOM) work if we use 16bpp or higher color ..? If not, How to change X from 16 bpp to 8bpp without restart it. If I play doom (SDOOM, SVGA Lib) I must be a root !! Why ? and how to solve it. In SuSE there is a Library error ..in /usr/lib/vga.so.1 when I use to play doom, So I changed to Doom's vga.so.1. Why the symbolic back again from Doom' has to SuSE has.. WindowMaker maNIa -- Best regards, Syeh mailto:A3@Telkom.net -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

grimmer＠suse.de

09:42

New subject: [SLE] Doom Problem

Hi, On Thu, 25 May 2000, Syeh Abidin wrote:

...

Anybody know how to make Doom (XDOOM) work if we use 16bpp or higher color ..?

Reprogram it :) X Applications have to have the proper code to handle other color depths than 8bpp. It seems like the developers have not implemented such support.

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If not, How to change X from 16 bpp to 8bpp without restart it.

You cannot change the color depth of a running X server. But you can try to use "Xnest", a nested X server: [SNIP] XNEST(1) XNEST(1) NAME Xnest - a nested X server SYNOPSIS Xnest [-options] DESCRIPTION Xnest is a client and a server. Xnest is a client of the real server which manages windows and graphics requests on its behalf. Xnest is a server to its own clients. Xnest manages windows and graphics requests on their behalf. To these clients Xnest appears to be a conventional server. [SNIP]

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If I play doom (SDOOM, SVGA Lib) I must be a root !! Why ? and how to solve it.

You need to be able to access the video card directly, when using the SVGA library. If you have a safe environment, you can alternatively set the SUID bit for "root" for the doom binary instead.

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In SuSE there is a Library error ..in /usr/lib/vga.so.1 when I use to play doom, So I changed to Doom's vga.so.1. Why the symbolic back again from Doom' has to SuSE has..

Sorry, I don't understand this question :( Bye, LenZ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Lenz Grimmer SuSE GmbH mailto:grimmer@suse.de Schanzaeckerstr. 10 http://www.suse.de/~grimmer 90443 Nuernberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

Rik.Dunphy＠motorola.com

10:18

New subject: [SLE] Doom Problem

Syeh Abidin wrote:

...

Hello All, Anybody know how to make Doom (XDOOM) work if we use 16bpp or higher color ..? If not, How to change X from 16 bpp to 8bpp without restart it.

If I play doom (SDOOM, SVGA Lib) I must be a root !! Why ? and how to solve it. In SuSE there is a Library error ..in /usr/lib/vga.so.1 when I use to play doom, So I changed to Doom's vga.so.1. Why the symbolic back again from Doom' has to SuSE has..

WindowMaker maNIa

Hi, I had similar problems, For xdoom, you can start up another X session on screen 1 e.g. startx -- 1: --bpp8 the use CTRL-ALT F7/F8 to switch between them. To speed up the process it's better to load a small window manager, or preferably add xterm to the /usr/X11/bin/wmlist file so you can simply start up an xterminal. startx xterm -- 1: -bpp 8 But this is tiresome, so I downloaded every different version of doom for linux and came across "lxdoom". This runs quite happily under any color depth and is much easier to configure. It also runs well with WAD files from Doom, Doom 2, and Doom SE. All you need do is set an environement setting DOOMWADDIR to point to your wad directories, e.g. export DOOMWADDIR=/mnt/win/games/doom then simply start lxdoom. If you want to resize the screen you can by lxdoom -width 800 -height 600. As for the SVGAlib, I couldn't figure out this one either. Anyone any ideas? Hope that's of use RikD -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

roberto＠orion.cl

15:27

New subject: [SLE] Doom Problem

Xdoom the game??????, coudl you tell me were I cant get it, please :) A3@Telkom.net escribe:

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Hello All, Anybody know how to make Doom (XDOOM) work if we use 16bpp or higher color ..? If not, How to change X from 16 bpp to 8bpp without restart it.

If I play doom (SDOOM, SVGA Lib) I must be a root !! Why ? and how to solve it. In SuSE there is a Library error ..in /usr/lib/vga.so.1 when I use to play doom, So I changed to Doom's vga.so.1. Why the symbolic back again from Doom' has to SuSE has..

WindowMaker maNIa -- Best regards, Syeh mailto:A3@Telkom.net

-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com

Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

_________________________________ Atte, Roberto Poblete / email: roberto@orion.cl fono: 6403943 / Fax: 6403990 Orion 2000 Consultoría en Seguridad y Redes -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

Rik.Dunphy＠motorola.com

15:39

New subject: [SLE] Doom Problem

sure, go to freshmeat.net and do a search for lxdoom RikD Roberto Poblete wrote:

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Xdoom the game??????, coudl you tell me were I cant get it, please :)

A3@Telkom.net escribe:

...
Hello All, Anybody know how to make Doom (XDOOM) work if we use 16bpp or higher color ..? If not, How to change X from 16 bpp to 8bpp without restart it.

If I play doom (SDOOM, SVGA Lib) I must be a root !! Why ? and how to solve it. In SuSE there is a Library error ..in /usr/lib/vga.so.1 when I use to play doom, So I changed to Doom's vga.so.1. Why the symbolic back again from Doom' has to SuSE has..

WindowMaker maNIa -- Best regards, Syeh mailto:A3@Telkom.net

-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com

Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

_________________________________ Atte, Roberto Poblete / email: roberto@orion.cl fono: 6403943 / Fax: 6403990 Orion 2000 Consultoría en Seguridad y Redes

-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

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elicker＠email.com

23:08

New subject: [SLE] Doom Problem

Roberto Poblete wrote:

...

Xdoom the game??????, coudl you tell me were I cant get it, please :)

http://lxdoom.linuxgames.com/ -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

dsoper＠clipper.net

05:52

New subject: [SLE] Is Linux Ready? WYSIWYG editors rants......

On 24 May 2000, at 8:12, Samy Elashmawy wrote:

...

I have never written a line of html code , besides a few lines to start a java tutorial app , Why is it so difficult for the gui/wsywig editers to do html layout , why the need for hand editing ?

The wsiwig stuff I use are browsers , wordprossers , and data base apps, as well as some programing with delphi which uses wsywig to place components. Thas one app I would realy like to see on Linux.

I don't quite get this myself. The simple fact is that every WYSIWYG html editor I've ever seen writes non-compliant html, and none of them come with a *validator* to check for and correct their mistakes. For writing *compliant* html, Dreamweaver is one of the better WYSIWYG ones, as is Toppage, but if you validate it there are mistakes that need to be corrected, and more often than not, they are nesting errors. Word processors don't screw up their formatting, neither do desktop publishing apps. There are IDEs that generate huge code templates and they don't (well, this might be stretching a bit, especially the ones made by the unmentionables in Redmond) generate bad code. It would seem that with the obvious demand for writing good html code, someone would have written an html editor that works right. Just my rant about html editors.... BTW, I like quanta, bluefish, and vim (the best of the lot). Cheers, Dennis "Custard pies are a sort of esperanto: a universal language." --Noel Godin -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

jmgrant＠primenet.com

07:30

New subject: [SLE] Is Linux Ready? WYSIWYG editors rants......

On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 08:12:02AM +0000, Samy Elashmawy wrote:

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Huy Guys,

I have never written a line of html code , besides a few lines to start a java tutorial app , Why is it so difficult for the gui/wsywig editers to do html layout , why the need for hand editing ?

Perhaps because HTML was _designed_ to separate the presentation of content from the content itself. The original idea was that the author knows how the pieces of the content connect together a lot better than the viewer, and the browser knows a lot more about the local display environment of the viewer. Thus the author publishes the material, all linked together by HTML (structurally speaking), and lets let the browser sort out the presentation for the viewer according to local capabilities/preferences. Since HTML was designed primarily for providing access to content, which has almost nothing to do with the particulars of display and presentation, its tools for (especially) things like layout are primitive and unreliable. Expecting What You See on your monitor to survive a trip through HTML and be What They Get is largely an exercise in blind faith. This makes sense if you think about it. Even with hints like "color=" and "font=" modifiers, how can you expect something designed for one specific combination of display resolution/dpi/depth/color bandwidth/ browser/font collection/etc in mind to render in an identical manner in someone else's browser, which may actually be a braille-reader or a text-to-speech converter? Answer: you can't, any more than you can get Star Office to run on a tty. You just can't get there from here. You can, of course, approximate the effect by not supporting browsers that don't display your layout "correctly", but then you're starting to depend on implementation details again. This is basically what you're doing when you use a "WYSIWYG" tool for HTML coding and expecting it to produce code that displays the same in everyone else's browser just like it does in yours. Having access to content dependant on browser details is exactly what HTML was designed to avoid. The 4.01 docs, such as the one at, http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/intro/intro.html repeatedly stress accessibility and contain notes like, "At the time of writing, some HTML authoring tools rely extensively on tables for formatting, which may easily cause accessibility problems." .. pointedly drawing attention to problems caused by "WYSIWYG" tools trying to fit the square HTML peg into the round DTP hole. Now, I'm definitely not saying that GUI tools don't have their uses, but do realize that their advantages are limited to making the author's (or web designer's) life easier by making the HTML linking less of a chore. You _cannot_ depend on them to provide any influence over the user agents' (aka browsers') presentation of the material to the viewers. If you want a lot of control over presentation you'll have to rely on something other than HTML. PDF, Flash and Java come immediately to mind, and there are probably other tools that will also work. Use them instead of trying to make HTML do things it is not good for and not designed for. (Apologies in advance for the list abuse ... flames/replies/etc to me personally at jmgrant@primenet.com.) -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

cpchan＠myna.com

23 May 23 May

20:13

New subject: [SLE] Is Linux Ready?

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"Kevin" == Kevin Jackson writes:

>> However this does not stop people enguaging on the "fool's >> errand" of trying to find a way to treat HTML authoring as DTP. >> > By WYSIWYG (the term started in the first thread of this email) > for the purpose of these emails we mean what you design is what > you see on the browser. And by WYSIWYG it is obvious we mean > like VB. I must be stupid, all along I thought the purpose of HTML is for content and the rendering is the sole domain of the browser. Try viewing some of your pages in Lynx ;-). Charles -- ===================================================== One Net to rule them all, One Net to find them, One Net to bring them all, and with Linux bind them. ===================================================== -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

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A3＠Telkom.net
calyth＠home.com
cpchan＠myna.com
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